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Date:         Sun, 6 May 2018 12:17:04 +0100
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From:         Jonathan Fine <jfine2358@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: bibtex futures: url, doi, ?
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Juergen points out that changing bibtex mind break things. I'd like to ask,
is this the right place for the present discussion?

According to https://www.latex-project.org/latex3/code/, the present list
"is intended solely for discussing ideas and concepts for future versions
of LaTeX".

According to http://tug.org/bibtex/, the mailing list for [bibtex] bugs and
discussion is at http://tug.org/pipermail/biblio/

There are github repositories for biber and biblatex.
https://github.com/plk/biblatex
https://github.com/plk/biber

I think putting the current source for bibtex up on github would be a good
first step for Oren being able to do the right thing for bibtex. And it
might provide a better place for carrying out the present discussion.

--=20
Jonathan


On Sat, May 5, 2018 at 8:50 PM, Juergen Fenn <jfenn@gmx.net> wrote:

> I think there is another feature BibTeX really lacks, viz. a standard
> style for author-title-year citations as a standard for the humanities.
>
> But I wonder whether it is really worth the effort to change something
> about BibTeX because I think nowadays it is supposed to be stable in the
> first place. E.g., BibTeX has been implemented in many a library
> catalogue as an exchange format for bibliographic data. And those who
> rely on citation styles different from the standard styles and on UTF-8
> have a much more powerful tool at hand: Biblatex.
>
> Maybe it would be best not to change anything about BibTeX now and to
> concentrate on Biblatex and Biber instead.
>
> Regards,
> J=C3=BCrgen.
>
> Am 05.05.18 um 00:36 Uhr schrieb Karl Berry:
> > Hello LaTeX folk. Oren (Patashnik) has expressed a desire to do
> > "whatever seems useful" (given that compatibility is paramount) with a
> > future BibTeX release -- not that anything is going to happen quickly,
> > but he wanted to start gathering information at this point.
> >
> > For instance, clearly it would be nice to have a url field in the base
> > styles. But, what to do in the .bbl file? Assume \url{...} works? But
> > there have been different versions over the years and they don't all
> > accept the same thing, e.g., bare "#" and "%" in the url, not to mentio=
n
> > \url{...} vs. \url|...|, etc. And it induces a new dependency (to load
> > url/hyperrref/something) on the document, though maybe that is not a bi=
g
> > deal. Or maybe use a new macro, \btxurl, whose definition is output by
> > bibtex itself? That doesn't sound right.
> >
> > A doi field is another glaring candidate. But there there isn't even a
> > commonly-available \doi command in the first place. So what to do?
> \btxdoi?
> >
> > Maybe BibTeX could provide a core file bibtex.sty which is (implicitly?=
,
> > if available) loaded to define all such macros, probably mostly by
> > loading other packages? Sounds fraught with possible problems, but I
> > guess it's the most general solution.
> >
> > Another idea is to add new entry types. That at least doesn't have the
> > same compatibility issues as fields, but maybe isn't that interesting,
> either.
> >
> > Another "modern" idea is to support Unicode sorting, but having core
> > bibtex depend on ICU does not sound good, nor does reimplementing the
> > sorting algorithm. (And there is bibtexu for people who are gluttons fo=
r
> > such punishment.) People can already put UTF-8 characters in their .bib
> > files if they want to, I believe, and they just get output literally.
> >
> > Overall, it somewhat seems to us that although bibtex has zillions of
> > limitations and deficiencies, they have already been worked around, one
> > way or another (e.g., using biblatex). So imposing fixes in the core
> > code may be a solution that's worse than a problem, meaning the best
> > thing to do is ... nothing. Which doesn't sound right either :).
> >
> > Reactions, ideas? --thanks, karl.
> >
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Juergen points out that changing bibtex mind break th=
ings. I&#39;d like to ask, is this the right place for the present discussi=
on?</div><div><br></div><div><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:=
arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:n=
ormal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-a=
lign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spac=
ing:0px;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">Accord=
ing to <a href=3D"https://www.latex-project.org/latex3/code/">https://www.l=
atex-project.org/latex3/code/</a>, the present list &quot;is intended solel=
y for discussing ideas and concepts for future versions of LaTeX&quot;.</di=
v><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:=
small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:nor=
mal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;=
text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-sty=
le:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><br></div><div style=3D"color:rgb=
(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;f=
ont-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;lette=
r-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoratio=
n-color:initial">According to=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://tug.org/bibtex/">http:=
//tug.org/bibtex/</a>, the mailing list for [bibtex] bugs and discussion is=
 at=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://tug.org/pipermail/biblio/">http://tug.org/piperm=
ail/biblio/</a></div><br></div><div>There are github repositories for biber=
 and biblatex.</div><div><a href=3D"https://github.com/plk/biblatex">https:=
//github.com/plk/biblatex</a><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://github.com/p=
lk/biber">https://github.com/plk/biber</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>I t=
hink putting the current source for bibtex up on github would be a good fir=
st step for Oren being able to do the right thing for bibtex. And it might =
provide a better place for carrying out the present discussion.</div><div><=
br></div><div>--=C2=A0</div><div>Jonathan</div><div><br></div><div><br></di=
v><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, May 5, 2018 at 8:50 PM, Juergen Fenn <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jfenn@gmx.net" target=3D"_blank">jfenn@gmx.n=
et</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I think there is=
 another feature BibTeX really lacks, viz. a standard<br>
style for author-title-year citations as a standard for the humanities.<br>
<br>
But I wonder whether it is really worth the effort to change something<br>
about BibTeX because I think nowadays it is supposed to be stable in the<br=
>
first place. E.g., BibTeX has been implemented in many a library<br>
catalogue as an exchange format for bibliographic data. And those who<br>
rely on citation styles different from the standard styles and on UTF-8<br>
have a much more powerful tool at hand: Biblatex.<br>
<br>
Maybe it would be best not to change anything about BibTeX now and to<br>
concentrate on Biblatex and Biber instead.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
J=C3=BCrgen.<br>
<br>
Am 05.05.18 um 00:36 Uhr schrieb Karl Berry:<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">&gt; Hello LaTeX folk. Oren (Patash=
nik) has expressed a desire to do<br>
&gt; &quot;whatever seems useful&quot; (given that compatibility is paramou=
nt) with a<br>
&gt; future BibTeX release -- not that anything is going to happen quickly,=
<br>
&gt; but he wanted to start gathering information at this point.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; For instance, clearly it would be nice to have a url field in the base=
<br>
&gt; styles. But, what to do in the .bbl file? Assume \url{...} works? But<=
br>
&gt; there have been different versions over the years and they don&#39;t a=
ll<br>
&gt; accept the same thing, e.g., bare &quot;#&quot; and &quot;%&quot; in t=
he url, not to mention<br>
&gt; \url{...} vs. \url|...|, etc. And it induces a new dependency (to load=
<br>
&gt; url/hyperrref/something) on the document, though maybe that is not a b=
ig<br>
&gt; deal. Or maybe use a new macro, \btxurl, whose definition is output by=
<br>
&gt; bibtex itself? That doesn&#39;t sound right.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; A doi field is another glaring candidate. But there there isn&#39;t ev=
en a<br>
&gt; commonly-available \doi command in the first place. So what to do? \bt=
xdoi?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Maybe BibTeX could provide a core file bibtex.sty which is (implicitly=
?,<br>
&gt; if available) loaded to define all such macros, probably mostly by<br>
&gt; loading other packages? Sounds fraught with possible problems, but I<b=
r>
&gt; guess it&#39;s the most general solution.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Another idea is to add new entry types. That at least doesn&#39;t have=
 the<br>
&gt; same compatibility issues as fields, but maybe isn&#39;t that interest=
ing, either.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Another &quot;modern&quot; idea is to support Unicode sorting, but hav=
ing core<br>
&gt; bibtex depend on ICU does not sound good, nor does reimplementing the<=
br>
&gt; sorting algorithm. (And there is bibtexu for people who are gluttons f=
or<br>
&gt; such punishment.) People can already put UTF-8 characters in their .bi=
b<br>
&gt; files if they want to, I believe, and they just get output literally.<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Overall, it somewhat seems to us that although bibtex has zillions of<=
br>
&gt; limitations and deficiencies, they have already been worked around, on=
e<br>
&gt; way or another (e.g., using biblatex). So imposing fixes in the core<b=
r>
&gt; code may be a solution that&#39;s worse than a problem, meaning the be=
st<br>
&gt; thing to do is ... nothing. Which doesn&#39;t sound right either :).<b=
r>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Reactions, ideas? --thanks, karl.<br>
&gt; <br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

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