Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) by h2774747.stratoserver.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-3) with ESMTP id w457NkBm030621 for ; Sat, 5 May 2018 09:23:47 +0200 Received: from relay2.uni-heidelberg.de ([129.206.119.212]) by mx-ha.gmx.net (mxgmx114 [212.227.17.5]) with ESMTPS (Nemesis) id 1MddGb-1efWks1oRt-00ZQJU for ; Sat, 05 May 2018 09:17:07 +0200 Received: from listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (listserv.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.94]) by relay2.uni-heidelberg.de (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w457H6YZ000721; Sat, 5 May 2018 09:17:06 +0200 Received: from listserv (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9690C1278EE; Sat, 5 May 2018 09:17:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: by LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 16.0) with spool id 26167612 for LATEX-L@LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 5 May 2018 09:17:06 +0200 Delivered-To: LATEX-L@listserv.uni-heidelberg.de Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FC1C1269D0 for ; Sat, 5 May 2018 09:17:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-wm0-f49.google.com (mail-wm0-f49.google.com [74.125.82.49]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w457H0bt027778 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Sat, 5 May 2018 09:17:03 +0200 Received: by mail-wm0-f49.google.com with SMTP id l1-v6so8202798wmb.2 for ; Sat, 05 May 2018 00:17:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=qYn/mwYtJYDzbtFkNsuAD8og8XxapSM9XY5KEycpATo=; b=qfuYezsvc0s6GcEXSV/TV/9UqXsJ5dV9/qzb0DPBOJuq5GLCATCxw8zKzqur3WcyA1 3PN5RpWXCQ9ORHSqstiUiClg1PycdZ8eoLnxKfqJLsmKpfBARGI3G/9FrYS1j52dSo86 o+ukrzaXkWtT20WE9M8BQMxZFDJZy5HFeANizBwlewF48jURe6T8qo2jqtc4hyp8aIEw FJvdd+Fx1iM+/iB3Q9UwouSlbQW6bSzP62xSG+K2zdMJmPU7BwM0+pWIgxa7ZS+b0p3S oT4DQIamptDgvttu+8GT+x0/v29Rluj6eKKM2HlP58RzBK2G3p2mIDfjM2zfhlCQPsjI ofaQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tAdXrggb6tbm2O/STaqJJnmTflLoZjY4kjdBR5h2m0P5NmfmATN 7/1YYT5D5yDzSu3uwCdD43MUZ18TDrM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZpZVNUZmvpgN1wPn3vLsQtwgv8OYXSTlesn59cKHVqxkIhW+8fXg8Et+YxaR9MhxBkVcamtuA== X-Received: by 10.28.172.194 with SMTP id v185mr18514068wme.67.1525504620027; Sat, 05 May 2018 00:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (51.230.7.51.dyn.plus.net. [51.7.230.51]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a129sm2559273wme.34.2018.05.05.00.16.58 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 05 May 2018 00:16:59 -0700 (PDT) References: <201805042236.w44MaTV0010317@freefriends.org> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Date: Sat, 5 May 2018 08:16:57 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Joseph Wright Subject: Re: bibtex futures: url, doi, ? To: LATEX-L@LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE In-Reply-To: <201805042236.w44MaTV0010317@freefriends.org> Precedence: list List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Owner: List-Archive: Envelope-To: X-GMX-Antispam: 0 (Mail was not recognized as spam); Detail=V3; X-UI-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:QMNyn8fEFWQ=:zRG4tXjUb3Lem4jD8FhKQafdk5 /cn2eWFBNK7T3qWPm4cjromH3xkbwL0KGHrrmy//BaGdA2qGPOLZOuyYoPzfwDYbH9QREa+iI XAoC6KuLGe/cmP96vWksof/isWi9vIEPRbF4lPBmvaGipeY8Vkv2XVqG4L5oczV/exN+LS1fD ULTh9TQthcINA982ms1+BWtioet3+mUWU+J++X9t/dh0qy+lPLASUNLxOJ24Nc8O5kCgqG4dm o97eSrpZDzm6jBeToNtGlQZVuD6jMhWPujjydVPNUWJFzkH5Q1E285gFfOoFvm5zvMIrVN5pq pDUdH6INWyvOAUa3X4X/PVZ3gI7avwxvwzm/Qc17xzhPt19QR3gIBM5sxvZd8GYwKxGBRAd9R nWZ1plKBkXJdtX1WDhwyR5xSKFEJPqS8xmYuoBYth+19TyWAoOoYYW9cc6JXScTb34NvpFBua uwcIka1yldCWMTC1ECyxFKwRNfAntEMsxkt2rOoBpDRz8y8OVmCfLAMG0ubPTdb2IT9KtxoKq 9fN/cKLPEl6QfqpPvKHqG0ZhiAKvArQSFsFtY00JWNaKigbflXLxDVIrwgyJpK+VvjbQWyQmV iw7vIKo4yMMrODpoyFfAHHQEa0ajhcsitW5mtMFHvBdI1upp74F2XmhxiU+Ghk3X+p/2HFR3m UcXi7GBaE2gwp+0Pi2GzNUudpU6Z1XiF0eHBkNXYGOqLvnkI5c3LOZiEwkCzhz9a4fS80G/U/ 6M9hR8aE534ryTWn/0PdaWYbtD9zebi3yb84X2lVgWMmh6UJOg+xhaoSlZaKox9i0rk6/ZNmh Kq8Ev4+wtSzJWNVw08MeabucMla2ZHgaadNxOu+Wy8CVd87V/G5mYOD2hyJRhz89JLmsSD0aX UkTiS8N0sXPyfHzoBHz4qBgAErviIXg/VNyRVpJxPrWqjqsxB476s+bpkz0pB9M1agKz+NHnV 5izRN2hnB84PP/tbdf1zL0zpBqSOmtWBq846/RFBYSXnl0wNIJWDYelECqVRUU/wMrzh3upU1 lfHDZeW0Kpy17FCEIDenJUZ1KREi/fg7D00EPgvX4GLdRLwwfIaosn9FKXZkCM0dOPffx6eEn x7XfghFlnh14oxcSzr6Jwjr39zl6VtqeRUaCDWlLqi4KYPoIOwy14KzaI02uJWb39/rkVDxV8 fcgqXDmGy1B3cGd9KjJh+6j+fR8M5YL/6K9HvGCqqVEpVgtSvFQ0gvXTA27b7VF7mebZ37U/c c3XoXUI/9v77gX0EzmTaMChJPiiwHla8GQQSiefDf+a2PObPv798mzP8VSmLtdYmtmJeWTN/O 7hfwdBp/+WekffLBQxAg5hf/n876UT0z6IobSz4K+Hmn/3yroIuom/3VCuxQ+hoqBPWsFRRDB YIL4RcArJDmgYnUKf3AbiUX5UGaN92nY4tCmLeWXqcbR8dweJy1EdGIWks7cwzt54tfwXl7/m qgpoQepu84fM2EoKnxrS4x0ioeI4B+ToAu+w1xvJOTIOc9NccbTrYqO3lGwGC3N1Hj9FBwXRe SRe2pN582rL4IYPxWvAZPYcvq7U+j27lBXKJSaL2f7NhrCoccuRGS5IxYhD0q+OTc+XOQ7giy i7q11hkd2HcBmysgB7dvg2wS5G+V/MK+VPDpwYLRvWGVFV5Z2ixJ9aVwgxfgH2+3bwOb2X8FM zSicW4ZGzbBjy2cQFmL3MJvZV1Q0SNMbES4rkSKi3pGsX0cbnwzcjA9eiJNn8ZnnPgqo0ULC/ ndl9E9b8ji0ugwexymSYyuaw6i2udg5+CvsuSAA7T3UrGUFu6jWwjzeW4Y3dspadvUue9qvYA woYZ/asbDBr1+LoxuUu5Ohlcg5TZdEdqaRnj9f9OrQCv9VhmC3OguqGr21hm8VoWWFc/UPZP7 cDQ4ETiuy3wBuVC5vV6HuKoF4go8b3cHda3KxccvUHcTCmRB3r1FqhcVPCv7sJwXf7gk4TBYq aPWPg+yoQhH5Mp1gaQqeag2MYjrTkg= X-UI-Loop:V01:4II/rGlwYPQ=:twY+0LLE8KQ3D8l8Bxczb9JUL3b5AJuDdfkRRB7XbzY= X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:jfz1zKq7zYc=:9oS2Whiulq0vXOjzNkXMLT wob6k1Jy5WKsQp+QS74ku6+wYYn77rO8AuZcsJ35OaA2aiXhZcDDi+4bTdtqsAO1EWz56KbCL 2Qp+IwxIcVs5J9xSH1FODa8q83eUQLy/IGbhkf0cBoiDbVoKyUDoCH/hiHPKZ/Wt+aFOidmWe gF9mOu96295Okcfi8hV1/WSd1VerlZ4C38st+h+MTgk+75ZCOYcSKaETVspagSu6Cz5KCj/MY 9dmh/dEu2JrTI5hgntk03i4z/Jrk2yN+o7A7vFMoj/6P87VIGbLn78wc5BipyWuzfT018qjo/ XzTvFp0FHYoyN5aY8cnCACdpuSgzxMMh81+fPlhc7D9iEKEPKqjdg5yaB8qZDlfNJCanE9mf4 tq4jLRfUKaI2C8qfozREZNYW7AEU6aWhQp+4Okw70vuP5iN9xDQVPtWWZ+TzrQrqfcH+NWOlb NW0X1yhaAqvd//TfUD2DGjAcvsSATr0= X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.78 on 81.169.212.23 Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 8025 On 04/05/2018 23:36, Karl Berry wrote: > Hello LaTeX folk. Oren (Patashnik) has expressed a desire to do > "whatever seems useful" (given that compatibility is paramount) with a > future BibTeX release -- not that anything is going to happen quickly, > but he wanted to start gathering information at this point. All sounds good :) I think it's worth noting up-front that almost all users will get an update to BibTeX only as part of their TeX system. As such, changes in LaTeX macro provision *now* can almost certainly be taken as applying to anyone using an updated BibTeX. Of course one can imagine 'What happens if a user has a new .bst file but an older LaTeX distro', but this is pretty unlikely. > For instance, clearly it would be nice to have a url field in the base > styles. But, what to do in the .bbl file? Assume \url{...} works? But > there have been different versions over the years and they don't all > accept the same thing, e.g., bare "#" and "%" in the url, not to mention > \url{...} vs. \url|...|, etc. And it induces a new dependency (to load > url/hyperrref/something) on the document, though maybe that is not a big > deal. Or maybe use a new macro, \btxurl, whose definition is output by > bibtex itself? That doesn't sound right. There is always the @preamble approach of \providecommand*{\url}[1]{...} for some suitable fall-back definition. (Could just be \texttt{\detokenize{#1}}, given that LaTeX now requires e-TeX anyway.) Taking a quick look at the url package, I notice that it can happily be loaded even if \url is already defined (it uses \def not \newcommand). As such, one possibility would be to ask the team to add a form of \url to the kernel (which could of course be backed out by latexrelease). Of course this doesn't address existing installations, but it's pretty unlikely (as noted above). (I suspect any change here will need discussion by the team: I'm just flagging up that it's a not-unreasonable suggestion in 2018.) Hyper-linking is something bigger: one for a separate thread I suspect. > A doi field is another glaring candidate. But there there isn't even a > commonly-available \doi command in the first place. So what to do? \btxdoi? There is a very short doi package on CTAN: it does use \newcommand so is slightly more tricky. The code there is LPPL by Heiko Oberdiek, so I would imagine that a change to use \def, and thus letting the kernel provide \doi, would be viable (taking the same tack as for \url). I guess my question with both of these ideas is what impact it has on existing documents. If people have URL/DOI data in their .bib files, it will 'magically' appear following such a change. For biblatex and some natbib styles, the approach taken is to have a switching mechanism to control that. 'Out of the box' BibTeX doesn't really do that, so there is an implication. On the other hand, the vanilla BibTeX styles are probably not used directly in that many publications: there are 100s of .bst files for a reason. So perhaps this is not really a significant issue: just needs documenting. > Another idea is to add new entry types. That at least doesn't have the > same compatibility issues as fields, but maybe isn't that interesting, either. As Boris says, any change here wants to fit in with natbib (and biblatex) if at all possible: the fields url and doi are well-established. BTW, any changes here probably should be covered in 'Tame the BeaST', if possible. > Another "modern" idea is to support Unicode sorting, but having core > bibtex depend on ICU does not sound good, nor does reimplementing the > sorting algorithm. (And there is bibtexu for people who are gluttons for > such punishment.) People can already put UTF-8 characters in their .bib > files if they want to, I believe, and they just get output literally. I'd avoid this, certainly the sorting part. Sorting is *complicated*, and a big reason that Biber is written in Perl not (say) Lua: there are *lots* of subtleties to Unicode sorting. Using UTF-8 in BibTeX files is 'interesting': you are fine provided BibTeX just passes the bytes through. Issues start when any BibTeX functions get applied to material, most obviously change.case$. As far as I know, BibTeXu is not really production-usable. (Even case changing is non-trivial for Unicode, though it is more tractable.) Speaking personally, I've never had an issue with BibTeX + Unicode, but I do physical sciences, and so basically don't have to manipulate things like article titles ... > Overall, it somewhat seems to us that although bibtex has zillions of > limitations and deficiencies, they have already been worked around, one > way or another (e.g., using biblatex). So imposing fixes in the core > code may be a solution that's worse than a problem, meaning the best > thing to do is ... nothing. Which doesn't sound right either :). Largely true :) Joseph