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Sun, 08 Jan 2012 20:23:04 GMT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.115.331698 References: <4F0970A8.3040503@latex-project.org> <4F0978F2.9000703@nag.co.uk> <20120108114619.GA29129@oberdiek.my-fqdn.de> <1326024999.76644.YahooMailNeo@web24705.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4F09B036.8090707@latex-project.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-905591047-894188226-1326054184=:54660" Message-ID: <1326054184.54660.YahooMailNeo@web24714.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 20:23:04 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Chris A Rowley Subject: Re: trial typesetting support To: LATEX-L@listserv.uni-heidelberg.de In-Reply-To: <4F09B036.8090707@latex-project.org> Precedence: list List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Owner: List-Archive: X-GMX-Antispam: 0 (eXpurgate); Detail=5D7Q89H36p6sJLDpZh614LdjtwLz6vwIfdZOYhYmR0OdKW9Xr+etCk8MXUPW1JLm0JOZm vVL3UN0uW4IUGq9xZYuTtNdYoYIoiUk9iBLsFD5nN1dk11SMZGDpz75TNHlSBHeGyLr/PFNxXLDG d/djB3VLz86XF3gfdYF2lAX0mqFSVzWiPZvr4NvVt5j0kqkxP6VX0Pyxwk=V1; X-Resent-By: Forwarder X-Resent-For: rainer.schoepf@gmx.net X-Resent-To: rainer@rainer-schoepf.de Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 6989 ---905591047-894188226-1326054184=:54660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Frank=0A=0AIt is certainly true that when generated text depends (in more o= r less complex ways)=C2=A0=0Aon the formatting, then trials will need to be= more extensive, and information from the trials=0Aneeds to be collected; b= ut most, possibly all, of this can be specified in =E2=80=99tags=E2=80=99 t= hat are not=C2=A0=0Aembedded in the text segments.=C2=A0=0A=0AIn this parti= cular example, the fact that a certain number of 'varioref =C2=A0tags=E2=80= =99 occur is a property=C2=A0=0Aof the whole=C2=A0text segment and so this = information does not need to be embedded.=0A=0AThe generation of the actual= text from the =E2=80=98varioref tag=E2=80=99 is possibly different as gene= rated text=C2=A0=0Amay need information about immediately surrounding text:= for example auto-typesetting:=C2=A0=0A=0A=C2=A0 the next word, when typese= t in the current font, , uses positioned glyphs: field-office=0A= =0AThis suggests that =E2=80=98generated text=E2=80=99 should be of a diffe= rent type and =E2=80=98text=E2=80=99 must contain 'text-segments=E2=80=99= =C2=A0=0Aof different types (at least) =E2=80=98explicit=E2=80=99 and =E2= =80=98generated=E2=80=99. =C2=A0Then in those cases when it is not possible= to replace the=C2=A0=0A=E2=80=98generated segments=E2=80=99 by 'explicit s= egments' without typesetting the whole text, this process becomes another t= rial.=0A=0AThen any side-effects of the =E2=80=99text generation=E2=80=99 c= an be simply confined to be outputs from this trial and thus they=C2=A0=0Aw= ill not =E2=80=98directly effect' any =E2=80=98global machine=E2=80=99 that= is used by the =E2=80=98text generation=E2=80=99. =C2=A0(Which is probably= an=C2=A0=0Aobfuscated way of saying what others have suggested.)=0A=0AThus= the generated text need not and should not be treated very differently whe= n doing typesetting, except in=C2=A0=0Athe =E2=80=98text generation trials= =E2=80=99 and even then the =E2=80=98generation machine=E2=80=99 and the = =E2=80=98typesetter=E2=80=99 should communicate=0Aonly via the =E2=80=98tri= al mechanism=E2=80=99 of these trials.=0A=0AIt is thus true that general me= thods need to be developed to provide and deal with all types of such feedb= ack=C2=A0=0Afrom trials.including their effects on other machines, such as = the 'varioref document database=E2=80=99.=0A=0AI know that this has not rea= lly addressed Frank=E2=80=99s concerns; I regret that my problem is that I = am not thinking of=0Aa model in which either characters or tags actually 'd= o anything=E2=80=99 (or =E2=80=98are evaluated=E2=80=99) beyond signifying = their=C2=A0=0A'positions in a document'.=0A=0ASo =E2=80=98generated text=E2= =80=99 is =C2=A0Text=C2=A0but the generating mechanism is not so, to stick = to the principle,=C2=A0=0Athe generator should not be typeset (which is rou= ghly where we came in).=C2=A0=0A=0Achris=0A=0A=0A>_________________________= _______=0A> From: Frank Mittelbach =0A>= To: LATEX-L@LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE =0A>Sent: Sunday, 8 January 2012, 15= :03=0A>Subject: Re: trial typesetting support=0A> =0A>Chris=0A>=0A>> Of cou= rse, the most general solution, for the future, would be to move to:=0A>> = =0A>> Full separation of =E2=80=98text input=E2=80=99 (data, pure character= strings) from =E2=80=98tags=E2=80=99=0A>> (non-typesetting process directi= ons, typesetting hints, etc), so that=0A>> Only the Text gets Typeset =E2= =80=94 Always ** The OTTA Principle.=0A>=0A>I don't see how this would help= here. Can you explain?=0A>=0A>The issue is that you do have conditional "i= nput text" that depends on tags around it so you can't necessarily just typ= eset the text and leave the tags alone. For a small isolated piece of text = that might be true but any larger portion might rely on the evaluation of t= ags inside to typeset itself correctly.=0A>=0A>So how would this work?=0A>= =0A>frank=0A>=0A>=0A> ---905591047-894188226-1326054184=:54660 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Frank

It is certainly true that wh= en generated text depends (in more or less complex ways) 
=
on the formatting, then trials will need to be more extensive, a= nd information from the trials
needs to be collected= ; but most, possibly all, of this can be specified in =E2=80=99tags=E2=80= =99 that are not 
embedded in the text segments= . 

In this particul= ar example, the fact that a certain number of 'varioref  tags=E2=80=99= occur is a property 
of the whole = text segment and so this information does not need to be embedded.

The generation of the actual text from = the =E2=80=98varioref tag=E2=80=99 is possibly different as generated text 
may need information about immediately surrounding text: for exampl= e auto-typesetting: 

  the next word, when typeset in the current font, <FONT>, use= s <N> positioned glyphs: field-office

This suggests that =E2=80=98generated text=E2=80=99 sho= uld be of a different type and =E2=80=98text=E2=80=99 must contain 'text-se= gments=E2=80=99 
of different types (at least) = =E2=80=98explicit=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98generated=E2=80=99.  Then in t= hose cases when it is not possible to replace the 
=E2=80=98generated segments=E2=80=99 by 'explicit segments' without typ= esetting the whole text, this process becomes another trial.

Then any side-effects of the =E2=80=99= text generation=E2=80=99 can be simply confined to be outputs from this tri= al and thus they 
will not =E2=80=98directly effe= ct' any =E2=80=98global machine=E2=80=99 that is used by the =E2=80=98text = generation=E2=80=99.  (Which is probably an 
obfuscated way of saying what others have suggested.)
<= span>
Thus the generated text need not and shoul= d not be treated very differently when doing typesetting, except in 
the =E2=80=98text generation trials=E2=80=99 and even= then the =E2=80=98generation machine=E2=80=99 and the =E2=80=98typesetter= =E2=80=99 should communicate
only via the =E2=80=98trial m= echanism=E2=80=99 of these trials.

It is thus true that general methods need to be developed to provide an= d deal with all types of such feedback 
from trials.i= ncluding their effects on other machines, such as the 'varioref document da= tabase=E2=80=99.

I know that th= is has not really addressed Frank=E2=80=99s concerns; I regret that my proble= m is that I am not thinking of
a model in which eith= er characters or tags actually 'do anything=E2=80=99 (or =E2=80=98are evalu= ated=E2=80=99) beyond signifying their 
'positi= ons in a document'.

So = =E2=80=98generated text=E2=80=99 is  Text but the generati= ng mechanism is not so, to stick to the principle, 
the gene= rator should not be typeset (which is roughly where we came in). 

chris

From= : Frank Mittelbach <frank.mittelbach@LATEX-PROJECT.ORG> To: LATEX-L@LISTSERV.UNI= -HEIDELBERG.DE
Sent: = Sunday, 8 January 2012, 15:03
Sub= ject: Re: trial typesetting support
Chris
> Of course, the most general solution, for the future, would be to mov= e to:
>
> Full separation of =E2=80=98text input=E2=80=99 (dat= a, pure character strings) from =E2=80=98tags=E2=80=99
> (non-typeset= ting process directions, typesetting hints, etc), so that
> Only the = Text gets Typeset =E2=80=94 Always ** The OTTA Principle.

I don't se= e how this would help here. Can you explain?

The issue is that you d= o have conditional "input text" that depends on tags around it so you can't= necessarily just typeset the text and leave the tags alone. For a small isolated piece of text that might be= true but any larger portion might rely on the evaluation of tags inside to= typeset itself correctly.

So how would this work?

frank
<= br>