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Sun, 08 Jan 2012 12:16:39 GMT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.115.331698 References: <4F0970A8.3040503@latex-project.org> <4F0978F2.9000703@nag.co.uk> <20120108114619.GA29129@oberdiek.my-fqdn.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-1106500237-235033649-1326024999=:76644" Message-ID: <1326024999.76644.YahooMailNeo@web24705.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 12:16:39 +0000 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Chris A Rowley Subject: Re: trial typesetting support To: LATEX-L@listserv.uni-heidelberg.de In-Reply-To: <20120108114619.GA29129@oberdiek.my-fqdn.de> Precedence: list List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Owner: List-Archive: X-GMX-Antispam: 0 (eXpurgate); Detail=5D7Q89H36p6sJLDpZh614Kjz2nt6F3tHR5wgS1ZYM50B/U/3khB5kOkdktStlU5lImjVK 8deNAaqXSX7PtH3+66ItIb9//4J2c41SK/7ZgNQqj1pjS35uYdURnP94Gzo3HASz19p7EdGvbu1/ NUNMG5cLd37xiHmwmzMPWlhTqk/GqB9KTBeDdcOVHyPUd6SRi62c2zFgsc=V1; X-Resent-By: Forwarder X-Resent-For: rainer.schoepf@gmx.net X-Resent-To: rainer@rainer-schoepf.de Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 6987 ---1106500237-235033649-1326024999=:76644 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just to add that amsmath also has a mechanism for dealing with the similar = problem of =E2=80=98multi-pass processing'=0Athat happens when \mathchoice = is used.=0A=0AOf course, the most general solution, for the future, would b= e to move to:=0A=0A=C2=A0 Full separation of =E2=80=98text input=E2=80=99 (= data, pure character strings) from =E2=80=98tags=E2=80=99=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0 (n= on-typesetting process directions, typesetting hints, etc), so that=C2=A0= =0A=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Only the Text gets Typeset =E2=80=94 Always =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0** The OTTA Principle.=0A=0ACheers, =C2=A0chris=C2=A0=0A=0A=0A= =0A>________________________________=0A> From: Heiko Oberdiek =0A>To: LATEX-L@LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE =0A>Sent: Sund= ay, 8 January 2012, 11:46=0A>Subject: Re: trial typesetting support=0A> =0A= >On Sun, Jan 08, 2012 at 11:07:30AM +0000, David Carlisle wrote:=0A>=0A>> O= n 08/01/2012 10:32, Frank Mittelbach wrote:=0A>> >I just had a look into th= e following question on TeX.sx:=0A>> >=0A>> >http://tex.stackexchange.com/q= uestions/40330/centered-captions-containing-vref-may-not-always-appear-as-e= xpected=0A>> >=0A>> =0A>> >Anybody some good ideas how to address topic thi= s in a general fashion?=0A>> >=0A>> =0A>> Not really, but tabularx has to p= lay this game a lot=0A>=0A>Another player is amsmath. It needs to know the = width of the=0A>equations in order to know where to put the equation number= =0A>(e.g. below the equation if there is no place in the same line).=0A>The= measuring is done in macro \gmeasure@, it sets the switch=0A>\ifmeasuring@= to true.=0A>=0A>A more general mechanism would be nice, then a package=0A>= can disable some stuff (e.g. writing to .aux files) in=0A>trial runs withou= t knowing and supporting all the packages=0A>that uses trials.=0A>=0A>Eleme= nts of that feature could be:=0A>=0A>* A trial switch or something like tha= t.=0A>=C2=A0 If the trial switch is available and turned on, then the=0A>= =C2=A0 macros can automatically disable some stuff not needed in the=0A>=C2= =A0 trial.=0A>* A possibility to record undo steps in a hook that is called= =0A>=C2=A0 after the trial. A group resets the state for local assignments.= =0A>=C2=A0 But that does not work for global settings of counters. Or=0A>= =C2=A0 if a acronym macro expands the acronym in the first use und=0A>=C2= =A0 uses the short form in later uses. After the trial the acronym=0A>=C2= =A0 should be reset to the state before the trial.=0A>=0A>Also there might = be differnt purposes of the trial that might=0A>require different steps for= suppressing or undoing:=0A>* Measurement (amsmath, ...)=0A>* ...?=0A>=C2= =A0 =0A>Yours sincerely=0A>=C2=A0 Heiko Oberdiek=0A>=0A>=0A> ---1106500237-235033649-1326024999=:76644 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just to ad= d that amsmath also has a mechanism for dealing with the similar problem of= =E2=80=98multi-pass processing'
that happens when \mathch= oice is used.

Of course, the most general solution= , for the future, would be to move to:

  Full= separation of =E2=80=98text input=E2=80=99 (data, pure character strings) = from =E2=80=98tags=E2=80=99 
  (non-typesetting process= directions, typesetting hints, etc), so that 
   =   Only the Text gets Typeset =E2=80=94 Always      ** = The OTTA Principle.

Cheers,  chris 

From: Heiko Oberdiek <heiko.oberdiek@GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
To: LATEX-L@LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG= .DE
Sent: Sunday, 8 J= anuary 2012, 11:46
Subject: Re: trial typesetting support
On Sun, Jan 08, 2012 at= 11:07:30AM +0000, David Carlisle wrote:

> On 08/01/2012 10:32, F= rank Mittelbach wrote:
> >I just had a look into the following que= stion on TeX.sx:
> >
> >http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/40330/centered-ca= ptions-containing-vref-may-not-always-appear-as-expected
> >>
> >Anybody some good ideas how to address topic this in a = general fashion?
> >
>
> Not really, but tabularx has= to play this game a lot

Another player is amsmath. It needs to know= the width of the
equations in order to know where to put the equation n= umber
(e.g. below the equation if there is no place in the same line).The measuring is done in macro \gmeasure@, it sets the switch
\ifmeasu= ring@ to true.

A more general mechanism would be nice, then a packag= e
can disable some stuff (e.g. writing to .aux files) in
trial runs w= ithout knowing and supporting all the packages
that uses trials.

= Elements of that feature could be:

* A trial switch or something lik= e that.
  If the trial switch is available and turned on, then the
  macros can automatically disable some stuff not needed in th= e
  trial.
* A possibility to record undo steps in a hook that i= s called
  after the trial. A group resets the state for local assi= gnments.
  But that does not work for global settings of counters. = Or
  if a acronym macro expands the acronym in the first use und  uses the short form in later uses. After the trial the acronym
&= nbsp; should be reset to the state before the trial.

Also there migh= t be differnt purposes of the trial that might
require different steps f= or suppressing or undoing:
* Measurement (amsmath, ...)
* ...?
&nb= sp;
Yours sincerely
  Heiko Oberdiek


=
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