Received: from mx0.gmx.net (mx0.gmx.net [213.165.64.100]) by h1439878.stratoserver.net (8.14.2/8.14.2/Debian-2build1) with SMTP id p02L5NMu005166 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2011 22:05:24 +0100 Received: (qmail 24274 invoked by alias); 2 Jan 2011 21:05:18 -0000 Delivered-To: GMX delivery to rainer.schoepf@gmx.net Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 02 Jan 2011 21:05:18 -0000 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (EHLO relay.uni-heidelberg.de) [129.206.100.212] by mx0.gmx.net (mx089) with SMTP; 02 Jan 2011 22:05:18 +0100 Received: from listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (listserv.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.94]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id p02L3RNS000997 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 2 Jan 2011 22:03:28 +0100 Received: from listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id p01N14h4014420; Sun, 2 Jan 2011 22:03:26 +0100 Received: by LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 16.0) with spool id 771840 for LATEX-L@LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 2 Jan 2011 22:03:25 +0100 Received: from relay2.uni-heidelberg.de (relay2.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.210.211]) by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id p02L3PH9015442 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2011 22:03:25 +0100 Received: from nm2.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com (nm2.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com [98.139.52.199]) by relay2.uni-heidelberg.de (8.13.8/8.13.8) with SMTP id p02L3H2d010493 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2011 22:03:17 +0100 Received: from [98.139.52.189] by nm2.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Jan 2011 21:03:16 -0000 Received: from [74.6.228.37] by tm2.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Jan 2011 21:03:16 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp106.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Jan 2011 21:03:16 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 767794.4593.bm@smtp106.mail.ac4.yahoo.com Received: from [192.168.0.2] (st_philipp@91.49.156.171 with plain) by smtp106.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with SMTP; 02 Jan 2011 13:03:16 -0800 PST X-Yahoo-SMTP: _jlT6bOswBCTfNEaYibKorijSw14_bs- X-YMail-OSG: MlfMBFMVM1maoYTb.bLHSyC3Tvb2Z4fZeF9cTSRNfcdH1CB NCxd8wQd3_2mfo1_5jaU0YRn9h1NlWnMon7_jwr9QjtbQblocFVflufvLKod 4JCVmPyMA9LvsW9bci_VipxaxHfHtyviwbTeTrla8JxssgdA8rjOHTU5WQD9 TaKC8ioEGSk9WtazyfieyBgzT4hcG1bveu2PTA6D79cGj9bLnTAUJqpKK.gm DmEQe7M.cnp6RQZRe9k1ycRfqpsszjiT5TQ8ibicYpBhD34ozHspjQh2OzY3 JQrFZy24A32.EbNFgfeaU9mc469xnNtmZqoKM7EbByaFnQUQgl_S2mzgpVkj D8cZgkKyIAveG0ieXWUCnbxZY5JLJQR35QEICWA-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) References: <4D20D031.7040803@gmx.de> <4D20DAE9.3070306@morningstar2.co.uk> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de id p02L3PH9015443 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2011 22:03:01 +0100 Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project From: Philipp Stephani Subject: Re: l3luatex module To: LATEX-L@listserv.uni-heidelberg.de In-Reply-To: <4D20DAE9.3070306@morningstar2.co.uk> Precedence: list List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Owner: List-Archive: X-GMX-Antispam: 0 (Mail was not recognized as spam); Detail=5D7Q89H36p77e5KAPs1l6v/Sb97LojnDtMgfETrECMLUO9erHzOJe7j3G660N4yBY6XHH YPYtmQj6mbYUTZ3LnaFANLWrKE7/wIDhnv+VrW0hxOapLRUwuY9oBqo5h+Dh9B42XlFTMTKlXDju GaV8Q==V1; X-Resent-By: Forwarder X-Resent-For: rainer.schoepf@gmx.net X-Resent-To: rainer@rainer-schoepf.de Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 6505 Am 02.01.2011 um 21:07 schrieb Joseph Wright: > If the idea is that you can use LaTeX3 without needing to know all of the underlying TeX still it would be great if the behavior of the L3 macros were formally defined in TeX terms: I often experience that I cannot use certain L3 macros because it is not documented whether they expand to, say, an or an . \dimexpr ... \relax is guaranteed by the e-TeX manual to be an , but what \int_eval:n does is undocumented—in fact, it expands to an without trailing space, making things like \documentclass{minimal} \usepackage{expl3} \begin{document} \newcount\x \ExplSyntaxOn \x = \int_eval:n { 1 + 1 } 1 \ExplSyntaxOn (\the\x) \end{document} possible. 2e's counters and length were designed to make such effects impossible, but L3 reintroduces them :-( \dim_eval:n, on the contrary, expands to an . I think that is the right choice because it is faster and leads to fewer problems. I think a formal description like the following would be nice: "Formal definition: \int_eval:n is a non-long, non-protected, non-outer macro. The token sequence \int_eval:n expands after an undefined number of expansion steps to a token sequence that represents an ." Personally I would benefit from such guarantees because I could use more from L3. At the moment, my packages use a mixture of 2e, L3 and TeX primitives, and until L3 can replace every bit of TeX and 2e, the TeX speak won't disappear.