Received: from mail.proteosys.com ([213.139.130.197]) by nummer-3.proteosys with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Sun, 20 Jul 2003 00:07:42 +0200 Received: by mail.proteosys.com (8.12.9/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h6JM7XSb008673 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 00:07:40 +0200 Received: from listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (listserv.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.27]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6JM15mp021063; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 00:01:06 +0200 (MET DST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C34E42.2CA00B00" Received: from listserv (listserv.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.27]) by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/SuSE Linux 0.6) with ESMTP id h6JM05Ml030127; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 00:00:28 +0200 Received: from LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 0021 for LATEX-L@LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 00:00:28 +0200 Received: from relay2.uni-heidelberg.de (relay2.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.210.211]) by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/SuSE Linux 0.6) with ESMTP id h6JLu1M9030073 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 23:56:01 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from mail.gmx.net (imap.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by relay2.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h6JLuWGl000505 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 23:56:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 26606 invoked by uid 65534); 19 Jul 2003 21:56:31 -0000 Received: from pC19EBD4D.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO wilson.rwth-aachen.de) (193.158.189.77) by mail.gmx.net (mp002) with SMTP; 19 Jul 2003 23:56:31 +0200 In-Reply-To: ( =?iso-8859-1?q?Lars_Hellstr=F6m's_message_of?= "Sat, 19 Jul 2003 23:33:35 +0200") Organization: Aachen University of Technology (RWTH) References: <16153.14658.292643.77990@pussy.npc.de> <20030710081528.A12401@diabolo.informatik.rwth-aachen.de> <78ADDA01-B2DC-11D7-8AE7-0050E4455404@atlis.com> <20030711081704.A14039@diabolo.informatik.rwth-aachen.de> <16146.60345.852158.31606@pussy.npc.de> <16150.44860.510973.820690@pussy.npc.de> <200307171432.h6HEWXrZ002742@bilbo.localnet> <16151.19056.880153.478641@pussy.npc.de> <200307182058.h6IKwHwi028465@bilbo.localnet> <16153.14658.292643.77990@pussy.npc.de> Return-Path: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Jul 2003 22:07:44.0158 (UTC) FILETIME=[2DE953E0:01C34E42] User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) Emacs/21.2 (gnu/linux) x-mime-autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de id h6JLu1M9030074 X-Accept-Language: de, en X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.28 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) x-pgp-fingerprint: CA13 274E 96EF 1DB1 4992 D7D4 D523 14FB 4752 F2EF X-Face: $:ZH*7V$(*!W]7{qQLhM-f#d(Q6#shsBz8[qPwvRr(Hy{#Y3-$C\85(LKA[4'=X]Jy\),51 DU?fMKf}G[2r)>~K8Z3dWD<'R/hRsgW>Q.Fytf-:n*FG&iWyWNMM+c)(_R.k`$zrcq5%9yt"cd)Q]c 5G_W!:/8\S4ytn&NYP,OVd_|*GjEqvk:zK(,BTXvqgj4 X-Spam-Score: -32.8 () EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_GNUS_UA x-binford: 6100 (more power) x-pgp-affinity: will accept encrypted message for GPG X-Home-Page: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bronger Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: XML vs. (La)TeX markup Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 22:54:25 +0100 Message-ID: A X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Re: XML vs. (La)TeX markup Thread-Index: AcNOQi4EDX/X/2j0Rdi5AvU1HJpAsQ== From: "Torsten Bronger" To: Reply-To: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4723 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34E42.2CA00B00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Halloechen! Lars Hellstr=F6m writes: > At 15.54 +0200 2003-07-19, Torsten Bronger wrote: > >> The intersting thing are editors for *special* XML applications. >> Let me dream a bit: All scientific publishers agree on an XML >> format and order a simple-to-use GUI program that can create >> these documents. It runs on Linux, Windows, Mac, etc (because >> it's simple itself). Authors can download it and write their >> articles with it. > > Hmmm... Apart from copyright and the technical issue of using XML > as file format, Which issues? > this sounds a lot like actual state of things with MS Word today > (it certainly dominates non-mathematical scientific > publishing). We know from experience however that it is no good. Apart from the XML syntax it has nothing to do with MS Word's XHTML derivative. It doesn't contain any layout information for example. It is more like DocBook, possibly with a little bit visual markup in some (inline) places. >> Then there are no authors anymore that use exotic file formats, >> format their text in a very strange way, no employees of the >> publishers have to re-type the articles, authors don't lose time >> with superfluous typographical fine tuning, guideline can be made >> much simpler, archiving and retrieving is much simpler etc. > > How on earth is changing a technical detail (using XML instead of > the admittedly exotic "Word memory dump" format) which most users > are supposed to never encounter going to effect such dramatic > improvements in author practices? (Of course, this bit could be > where the dreaming is applied.) Logical markup. The author would be *forced* to focus on contents and structure. There is no list of 150 fonts to choose from anymore, and no way to use an awful baseline skip, or to fake a glyph with fancy field tricks. They must obey to a big part of the guidelines, no matter whether they want to or not, and whether they are typographically competent or not. Tschoe, Torsten. -- Torsten Bronger, aquisgrana, europa vetus ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34E42.2CA00B00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: XML vs. (La)TeX markup

Halloechen!

Lars Hellstr=F6m <Lars.Hellstrom@MATH.UMU.SE> = writes:

> At 15.54 +0200 2003-07-19, Torsten Bronger = wrote:
>
>> The intersting thing are editors for = *special* XML applications.
>> Let me dream a bit: All scientific = publishers agree on an XML
>> format and order a simple-to-use GUI program = that can create
>> these documents.  It runs on Linux, = Windows, Mac, etc (because
>> it's simple itself).  Authors can = download it and write their
>> articles with it.
>
> Hmmm... Apart from copyright and the technical = issue of using XML
> as file format,

Which issues?

> this sounds a lot like actual state of things = with MS Word today
> (it certainly dominates non-mathematical = scientific
> publishing). We know from experience however = that it is no good.

Apart from the XML syntax it has nothing to do with MS = Word's XHTML
derivative.  It doesn't contain any layout = information for example.
It is more like DocBook, possibly with a little bit = visual markup in
some (inline) places.

>> Then there are no authors anymore that use = exotic file formats,
>> format their text in a very strange way, no = employees of the
>> publishers have to re-type the articles, = authors don't lose time
>> with superfluous typographical fine tuning, = guideline can be made
>> much simpler, archiving and retrieving is = much simpler etc.
>
> How on earth is changing a technical detail = (using XML instead of
> the admittedly exotic "Word memory = dump" format) which most users
> are supposed to never encounter going to effect = such dramatic
> improvements in author practices? (Of course, = this bit could be
> where the dreaming is applied.)

Logical markup.  The author would be *forced* to = focus on contents
and structure.  There is no list of 150 fonts to = choose from
anymore, and no way to use an awful baseline skip, or = to fake a
glyph with fancy field tricks.  They must obey = to a big part of the
guidelines, no matter whether they want to or not, = and whether they
are typographically competent or not.

Tschoe,
Torsten.

--
Torsten Bronger, aquisgrana, europa vetus

------_=_NextPart_001_01C34E42.2CA00B00--