Received: from mail.proteosys.com ([213.139.130.197]) by nummer-3.proteosys with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:09:42 +0200 Received: by mail.proteosys.com (8.12.9/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h6I89XcH003147 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:09:40 +0200 Received: from listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (listserv.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.27]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6I7xAmp001961; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 09:59:10 +0200 (MET DST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C34D03.F0FF2700" Received: from listserv (listserv.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.27]) by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/SuSE Linux 0.6) with ESMTP id h6HM0DT7008378; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 09:58:07 +0200 Received: from LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 0438 for LATEX-L@LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 09:58:07 +0200 Received: from relay2.uni-heidelberg.de (relay2.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.210.211]) by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/SuSE Linux 0.6) with ESMTP id h6I7w6M9012813 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 09:58:06 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by relay2.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h6I7wYGl029604 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 09:58:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 22755 invoked by uid 65534); 18 Jul 2003 07:58:32 -0000 Received: from pD9008A56.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO wilson.rwth-aachen.de) (217.0.138.86) by mail.gmx.net (mp006) with SMTP; 18 Jul 2003 09:58:32 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Barbara Beeton's message of "Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:43:27 -0400") Organization: Aachen University of Technology (RWTH) References: <20030710081528.A12401@diabolo.informatik.rwth-aachen.de> <16150.26432.179873.408825@pussy.npc.de> <200307171952.38152.tim@birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie> Return-Path: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Jul 2003 08:09:45.0379 (UTC) FILETIME=[F302BF30:01C34D03] User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) Emacs/21.2 (gnu/linux) X-Accept-Language: de, en X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.28 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) x-pgp-fingerprint: CA13 274E 96EF 1DB1 4992 D7D4 D523 14FB 4752 F2EF X-Face: $:ZH*7V$(*!W]7{qQLhM-f#d(Q6#shsBz8[qPwvRr(Hy{#Y3-$C\85(LKA[4'=X]Jy\),51 DU?fMKf}G[2r)>~K8Z3dWD<'R/hRsgW>Q.Fytf-:n*FG&iWyWNMM+c)(_R.k`$zrcq5%9yt"cd)Q]c 5G_W!:/8\S4ytn&NYP,OVd_|*GjEqvk:zK(,BTXvqgj4 X-Spam-Score: -32.8 () EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_GNUS_UA x-binford: 6100 (more power) x-pgp-affinity: will accept encrypted message for GPG Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: XML, UTF-8 and TeX engines Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 08:45:07 +0100 Message-ID: A X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Re: XML, UTF-8 and TeX engines Thread-Index: AcNNA/MkHgr2yB8QQLy3k1rUSRS0aQ== From: "Torsten Bronger" To: Reply-To: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4701 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34D03.F0FF2700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Halloechen! Barbara Beeton writes: > timothy murphy asked, > > > And isn't it quite sensible to distinguish between text and = maths? > > and torsten bronger responded, > > XML doesn't do it and I find this very convenient. In (La)TeX, = for > many characters you need different commands for text and math = mode. > I'd love to have a typesetting system to which I could pass a say > 'small Greek letter alpha', and it would just work in every = context. > No font families, no encodings, no active/special characters, no > babel settings, and no modes to worry about. Wonderful ... > > not quite. i'm with tim here. > > for math publication, it's traditional to have variables in > italic. it's also traditional to have theorems in italic. > unless it's marked as math, how can you tell that "a" in a > theorem is a variable or the english indefinite article? > knuth tried to avoid this by > - using a slanted font instead of italic for theorems > - making a math italic that is ever so slightly wider than > text italic > but it still definitely requires marking a math "a" as math. You're right, the program -- or XML file format -- must provide a way to mark math areas, and it must apply rules or whatever to typeset accordingly. But I said "many characters you need different commands for text and math mode". In other words, those rules are not enough at all. I wrote (yet another ;) set of Unicode --> LaTeX replacements, and it's full of "\ifmmode ... \else ... \fi" constructs. So I must be aware of the current mode for *most* characters. One line says e.g.: 0x107 cacute "\ifmmode \acute{c}\else \'{c}\fi{}" My dream is to just insert the UTF-8 sequence of 0x107 and it works. Of course, the "cacute" doesn't make sense in math mode, and therefore LaTeX doesn't support such things, however I cannot tell XML authors which characters they are allowed to type. Even the standard latin1 inputenc option isn't math-proof. Tschoe, Torsten. -- Torsten Bronger, aquisgrana, europa vetus ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34D03.F0FF2700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: XML, UTF-8 and TeX engines

Halloechen!

Barbara Beeton <bnb@AMS.ORG> writes:

> timothy murphy asked,
>
>     > And isn't it quite = sensible to distinguish between text and maths?
>
> and torsten bronger responded,
>
>     XML doesn't do it and I = find this very convenient.  In (La)TeX, for
>     many characters you need = different commands for text and math mode.
>     I'd love to have a = typesetting system to which I could pass a say
>     'small Greek letter = alpha', and it would just work in every context.
>     No font families, no = encodings, no active/special characters, no
>     babel settings, and no = modes to worry about.  Wonderful ...
>
> not quite.  i'm with tim here.
>
> for math publication, it's traditional to have = variables in
> italic.  it's also traditional to have = theorems in italic.
> unless it's marked as math, how can you tell = that "a" in a
> theorem is a variable or the english indefinite = article?
> knuth tried to avoid this by
>  - using a slanted font instead of italic = for theorems
>  - making a math italic that is ever so = slightly wider than
>    text italic
> but it still definitely requires marking a math = "a" as math.

You're right, the program -- or XML file format -- = must provide a
way to mark math areas, and it must apply rules or = whatever to
typeset accordingly.

But I said "many characters you need different = commands for text and
math mode".  In other words, those rules = are not enough at all.  I
wrote (yet another ;) set of Unicode --> LaTeX = replacements, and
it's full of "\ifmmode ... \else ... \fi" = constructs.  So I must be
aware of the current mode for *most* = characters.  One line says
e.g.:

0x107   = cacute           &= nbsp;       "\ifmmode \acute{c}\else = \'{c}\fi{}"

My dream is to just insert the UTF-8 sequence of 0x107 = and it
works.  Of course, the "cacute" = doesn't make sense in math mode, and
therefore LaTeX doesn't support such things, however = I cannot tell
XML authors which characters they are allowed to = type.  Even the
standard latin1 inputenc option isn't = math-proof.

Tschoe,
Torsten.

--
Torsten Bronger, aquisgrana, europa vetus

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