Received: from mail.proteosys.com ([213.139.130.197]) by nummer-3.proteosys with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Mon, 14 Jul 2003 01:40:21 +0200 Received: by mail.proteosys.com (8.12.9/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h6DNeIcH014361 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 01:40:19 +0200 Received: from listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (listserv.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.27]) by relay2.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6DNSjGl029110; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 01:28:45 +0200 (MET DST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C34998.1F91A080" Received: from listserv (listserv.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.27]) by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/SuSE Linux 0.6) with ESMTP id h6DM0BO7023915; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 01:27:18 +0200 Received: from LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 0222 for LATEX-L@LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 01:27:18 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from relay2.uni-heidelberg.de (relay2.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.210.211]) by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/SuSE Linux 0.6) with ESMTP id h6DNRIM9025152 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 01:27:18 +0200 Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by relay2.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h6DNRXGl029039 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 01:27:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from somewhere by salmon.maths.tcd.ie via UUCP id ; 14 Jul 2003 00:27:33 +0100 (BST) Received: from william.murphy.ie (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by william.murphy.ie (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h69E7vYq002194; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 15:08:02 +0100 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by william.murphy.ie (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id h69E7pEw002192; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 15:07:51 +0100 In-Reply-To: <16139.118.62805.453383@puma.npc.de> Organization: School of Mathematics, Trinity College Dublin References: <3F075002.72955C93@MartinHensel.de> <200307081028.19280.tim@birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie> <16139.118.62805.453383@puma.npc.de> Return-Path: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jul 2003 23:40:21.0380 (UTC) FILETIME=[1FCB9C40:01C34998] User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 x-mime-autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de id h6DNRIM9025153 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.28 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Spam-Score: -32.2 () EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_KMAIL Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: Invitation for discussion: My suggestion for a LaTeX3 syntax Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 15:07:50 +0100 Message-ID: A<200307091507.51151.tim@birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Re: Invitation for discussion: My suggestion for a LaTeX3 syntax Thread-Index: AcNJmCABNWLBLw5KRWy77Ax9xol4Qw== From: "Timothy Murphy" To: Reply-To: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4666 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34998.1F91A080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tuesday 08 July 2003 18:33, Joachim Schrod wrote: > In particular, the macro language is not only dreadful, but may be > called "the most horrible macro language after the C preprocessor" > with full rights. I don't agree about TeX. It seems to me that when someone invents a language like TeX they can't really know how it is going to develop -- it is more like a shot in the dark. (This seems to me even more true of Metafont, where the language is more radical still.) I suspect you want a language like Pascal -- it's obvious that the LaTeX team want this, since their starting point (I don't know if this goes back to Lamport) seems to be the translation of TeX into a Pascal-like language, with the definition of loop macros, etc. The examples in the TeXbook seem to me to show an entirely different approach -- seeing where the language leads, rather than trying to force it into a kind of Pascalian corset. C is rather different -- I imagine Ritchie must be amazed to see that the language he cobbled together in a few weeks from BCPL has taken over the world, while Pascal, PL and Ada, with deep philisophical foundations, seem to be as dead as the dodo. And the C-preprocessor is large part of the reason for the success. of = C. I imagine people writing in Pascal/Modula or Java must often long for a pre-processor (or even close their eyes, and use cpp). -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: tim@birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-86-233 6090 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34998.1F91A080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Invitation for discussion: My suggestion for a LaTeX3 = syntax

On Tuesday 08 July 2003 18:33, Joachim Schrod = wrote:

> In particular, the macro language is not only = dreadful, but may be
> called "the most horrible macro language = after the C preprocessor"
> with full rights.

I don't agree about TeX.
It seems to me that when someone invents a language = like TeX
they can't really know how it is going to develop = --
it is more like a shot in the dark.
(This seems to me even more true of Metafont,
where the language is more radical still.)

I suspect you want a language like Pascal --
it's obvious that the LaTeX team want this,
since their starting point (I don't know if this goes = back to Lamport)
seems to be the translation of TeX into a Pascal-like = language,
with the definition of  loop macros, etc.

The examples in the TeXbook seem to me
to show an entirely different approach --
seeing where the language leads,
rather than trying to force it into a kind of = Pascalian corset.

C is rather different -- I imagine Ritchie must be = amazed
to see that the language he cobbled together in a few = weeks from BCPL
has taken over the world,
while Pascal, PL and Ada, with deep philisophical = foundations,
seem to be as dead as the dodo.

And the C-preprocessor is large part of the reason for = the success. of C.
I imagine people writing in Pascal/Modula or = Java
must often long for a pre-processor
(or even close their eyes, and use cpp).



--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail: tim@birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-233 6090
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, = Dublin 2, Ireland

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