Received: from mail.proteosys.com ([62.225.9.49]) by nummer-3.proteosys with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:09:25 +0200 Received: by mail.proteosys.com (8.12.9/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h6899LPP014041 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:09:24 +0200 Received: from listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (listserv.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.27]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6893Ymp010280; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:03:34 +0200 (MET DST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C34530.A0801080" Received: from listserv (listserv.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.27]) by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/SuSE Linux 0.6) with ESMTP id h681c0RF029100; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:03:30 +0200 Received: from LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 0559 for LATEX-L@LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:03:30 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from relay2.uni-heidelberg.de (relay2.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.210.211]) by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/SuSE Linux 0.6) with ESMTP id h6893UM9032677 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:03:30 +0200 Received: from control.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (control.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.53.6]) by relay2.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h6893SGl023171 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:03:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 15342 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2003 09:03:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO i7.informatik.rwth-aachen.de) (137.226.53.122) by control.informatik.rwth-aachen.de with SMTP; 8 Jul 2003 09:03:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 9696 invoked by uid 607); 8 Jul 2003 09:03:28 -0000 In-Reply-To: ; from Robin.Fairbairns@CL.CAM.AC.UK on Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 05:08:38PM +0100 References: <20030707130631.C8845@diabolo.informatik.rwth-aachen.de> Return-Path: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jul 2003 09:09:25.0937 (UTC) FILETIME=[A10F0A10:01C34530] User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.28 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Spam-Score: -32.8 () EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_MUTT Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: Invitation for discussion: My suggestion for a LaTeX3 syntax Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 10:03:28 +0100 Message-ID: A<20030708110328.A9515@diabolo.informatik.rwth-aachen.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Re: Invitation for discussion: My suggestion for a LaTeX3 syntax Thread-Index: AcNFMKEtVGy+88xsRgqyasqm2//HmQ== From: "Achim Blumensath" To: Reply-To: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4657 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34530.A0801080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 05:08:38PM +0100, Robin Fairbairns wrote: > achim blumensath wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 05, 2003 at 11:47:02PM +0100, Robin Fairbairns wrote: > > > the fact is, that many people complain about the restrictions that = tex > > > places on our programming, but no-one is willing to throw out the > > > basis of the "programming model" of tex -- rebuilding tex from = scratch > > > is just too much of a job. > > > > I do not know whether I count for "someone" but I'm currently doing > > precisely this (see ant on my home page). On the other hand, I'm not > > exactly rebuilding TeX since I do not aim for 100% compatibility. > > if i had misunderstood, please correct me, but i thought ant was _not_ > intended as a root-and-branch replacement of tex, but merely to > provide an alternative rapid-prototyping approach to nts. (and, i > thought, hopefully without the encumbrances under which nts labours.) Well, the longer I read your original remark the less I'm sure what you meant. I guess I have to cover all possible cases ;-) ant is not meant as a replacement of TeX in the sense that one can just exchange the binary and all old documents will still work (like etex, pdftex, Omega, NTS). Instead, I try to write a typesetting program with (at least) the same functionality as TeX and comparable syntax, but a much saner design. (Actually, it should be possible to write a compatibility mode for ant that can read all TeX documents and produce nearly identical results, but I have not the time/motivation to do so.) > of course, i expressed myself badly: the "programming model" i was > talking of was not "let's replace this web/pascal stuff", but rather > "let's find an alternative way of expressing tex operations that gains > desirable things, but doesn't lose us tex's extraordinary power". So you are speaking about the language that is used to write class files? In ant I distinguish between markup and style definitions. For the first one, I currently use TeX-syntax with only slight cleanups. Styles, on the other hand, are written in OCaml -- the programming language ant itself is written in. > an example of these "desirable things" could well be space > preservation. it's not something that turns me on, particularly, but > i can see the user interface arguments for it. In ant I dropped the notion of catcodes. Macros are just string replacements. Their arguments are not tokenised. In particular, spaces are only removed when a preceding command sequence is expanded. Achim -- ________________________________________________________________________ | \_____/ = | Achim Blumensath \O/ \___/\ = | Mathematische Grundlagen der Informatik =3Do=3D \ = /\ \| www-mgi.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/~blume /"\ = o----| ____________________________________________________________________\___|= ------_=_NextPart_001_01C34530.A0801080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Invitation for discussion: My suggestion for a LaTeX3 = syntax

Hello,

On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 05:08:38PM +0100, Robin = Fairbairns wrote:
> achim blumensath wrote:
> > On Sat, Jul 05, 2003 at 11:47:02PM +0100, = Robin Fairbairns wrote:
> > > the fact is, that many people complain = about the restrictions that tex
> > > places on our programming, but no-one = is willing to throw out the
> > > basis of the "programming = model" of tex -- rebuilding tex from scratch
> > > is just too much of a job.
> >
> > I do not know whether I count for = "someone" but I'm currently doing
> > precisely this (see ant on my home page). = On the other hand, I'm not
> > exactly rebuilding TeX since I do not aim = for 100% compatibility.
>
> if i had misunderstood, please correct me, but i = thought ant was _not_
> intended as a root-and-branch replacement of = tex, but merely to
> provide an alternative rapid-prototyping = approach to nts.  (and, i
> thought, hopefully without the encumbrances = under which nts labours.)

Well, the longer I read your original remark the less = I'm sure what you
meant. I guess I have to cover all possible cases = ;-)

ant is not meant as a replacement of TeX in the sense = that one can just
exchange the binary and all old documents will still = work (like etex,
pdftex, Omega, NTS). Instead, I try to write a = typesetting program with
(at least) the same functionality as TeX and = comparable syntax, but a
much saner design. (Actually, it should be possible = to write a
compatibility mode for ant that can read all TeX = documents and produce
nearly identical results, but I have not the = time/motivation to do so.)

> of course, i expressed myself badly: the = "programming model" i was
> talking of was not "let's replace this = web/pascal stuff", but rather
> "let's find an alternative way of = expressing tex operations that gains
> desirable things, but doesn't lose us tex's = extraordinary power".

So you are speaking about the language that is used to = write class
files? In ant I distinguish between markup and style = definitions. For
the first one, I currently use TeX-syntax with only = slight cleanups.
Styles, on the other hand, are written in OCaml -- = the programming
language ant itself is written in.

> an example of these "desirable things" = could well be space
> preservation.  it's not something that = turns me on, particularly, but
> i can see the user interface arguments for = it.

In ant I dropped the notion of catcodes. Macros are = just string
replacements. Their arguments are not tokenised. In = particular, spaces
are only removed when a preceding command sequence is = expanded.

Achim
--
________________________________________________________________= ________
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;  | \_____/ |
   Achim = Blumensath          &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;       \O/ \___/\ |
   Mathematische Grundlagen der = Informatik          &nb= sp;        =3Do=3D  \ /\ = \|
   = www-mgi.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/~blume     &nb= sp;            = /"\   o----|
________________________________________________________________= ____\___|

------_=_NextPart_001_01C34530.A0801080--