Received: from mail.proteosys.com ([62.225.9.49]) by nummer-3.proteosys with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Mon, 7 Jul 2003 21:42:27 +0200 Received: by mail.proteosys.com (8.12.9/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h67JgOPP011866 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 21:42:25 +0200 Received: from listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (listserv.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.27]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h67JYimp016888; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 21:34:44 +0200 (MET DST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C344BF.E51F9380" Received: from listserv (listserv.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.27]) by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/SuSE Linux 0.6) with ESMTP id h677rPeH016396; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 21:34:20 +0200 Received: from LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 1719 for LATEX-L@LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 21:34:20 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from relay2.uni-heidelberg.de (relay2.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.210.211]) by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/SuSE Linux 0.6) with ESMTP id h67JYKM9026336 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 21:34:20 +0200 Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.171]) by relay2.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h67JYIGl023532 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 21:34:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [212.227.126.162] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 19Zbke-00072i-00 for LATEX-L@listserv.uni-heidelberg.de; Mon, 07 Jul 2003 21:34:16 +0200 Received: from [212.159.36.35] (helo=MartinHensel.de) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.35 #1) id 19Zbkc-0000uv-00 for LATEX-L@listserv.uni-heidelberg.de; Mon, 07 Jul 2003 21:34:15 +0200 References: <3F075002.72955C93@MartinHensel.de> <16137.32354.704318.984160@pussy.npc.de> <3F099244.1434BFF3@MartinHensel.de> <16137.43868.184267.445549@pussy.npc.de> Return-Path: X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [de] (Win98; U) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jul 2003 19:42:27.0183 (UTC) FILETIME=[E53B7FF0:01C344BF] X-Accept-Language: de,en X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.28 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Spam-Score: -10.1 () QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: Invitation for discussion: My suggestion for a LaTeX3 syntax Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 20:33:56 +0100 Message-ID: A<3F09CB24.7195F5E7@MartinHensel.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Re: Invitation for discussion: My suggestion for a LaTeX3 syntax Thread-Index: AcNEv+VbzWQLxk0YQMWuYdKgcuE6Gw== From: "Martin Hensel" To: Reply-To: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4653 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C344BF.E51F9380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [If you do not want to read the HTML discussion, please notice the point I make at the end of this mail.] > You complained that TeX is inconsistent in its space handling. You > mentioned in your paper the example of leading spaces in lines, used > for indentation, that one can do with HTML/XML/other programming > languages, but not with TeX. No. I listed two established concepts. a) any sequence of space characters and line breaks is considered to be one space b) indentation I never talked about TeX as I am completely unfamiliar with it. > (1) At this moment, i.e., in the first two paragraphs of your > content, you mixed already your topic. You didn't write about > author interface any more, but about programmer's interface. I would claim that many "user" LaTeX documents contain command sequences that people like to indent. I wanted to be aware of this fact. > And the quotations in your email didn't address the problem in your > document at all. That's right. It was interested in your point of view as you said that I was "erroneous" in my sentence about HTML. > Yes, you quoted HTML space handling, but no, you did _not_ show the > differences to TeX where HTML is supposed to be more "regular" and > easier to handle for the user. I never claimed that HTML is better than TeX. In fact, I never talked about TeX. I mentioned the concept of space (and new line) compression. > Btw, you haven't even mentioned the real ideosynchrasies of TeX, > like handling of ^^0d. That brings me to the real issue: Do you > actually know that most of TeX's white space handling happens > before tokenization, i.e., before the programming starts at all? No. > You do know the basic principles of the TeX macro proces, do you? No. I am completely unfamiliar with TeX. > You did understand that some people on this list have their doubts > and that they demand from you that you show your basic knowledge > before they look at your proposals? I realise it, but I don't understand it. Why should it be impossible to discuss my proposal? A designer should be able to discuss his ideas with a manual worker or an engineer. If a designer thinks of a car that is impossible to build then it is no good if the engineer says, he does not talk with the designer unless the designer became an engineer himself. They could discuss what is possible and what not. They could look for alternatives that satisfy both of them. They could learn from each other. Why couldn't we discuss my proposal? Why is my proposal unworthy to be looked at just because I don't know TeX? Why do so many people tell me that I am stupid and unworthy to listen to? I hoped we could start a discussion. Please tell me what exactly is not implementable and help me to improve my proposal. Martin ------_=_NextPart_001_01C344BF.E51F9380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Invitation for discussion: My suggestion for a LaTeX3 = syntax

[If you do not want to read the HTML discussion, = please notice the
point I make at the end of this mail.]

> You complained that TeX is inconsistent in its = space handling. You
> mentioned in your paper the example of leading = spaces in lines, used
> for indentation, that one can do with = HTML/XML/other programming
> languages, but not with TeX.

No. I listed two established concepts.
  a) any sequence of space characters and line = breaks is considered
     to be one space
  b) indentation

I never talked about TeX as I am completely unfamiliar = with it.

>  (1) At this moment, i.e., in the first two = paragraphs of your
>      content, you mixed = already your topic. You didn't write about
>      author interface = any more, but about programmer's interface.

I would claim that many "user" LaTeX = documents contain command
sequences that people like to indent. I wanted to be = aware of this
fact.

> And the quotations in your email didn't address = the problem in your
> document at all.

That's right. It was interested in your point of view = as you said that
I was "erroneous" in my sentence about = HTML.


> Yes, you quoted HTML space handling, but no, you = did _not_ show the
> differences to TeX where HTML is supposed to be = more "regular" and
> easier to handle for the user.

I never claimed that HTML is better than TeX. In fact, = I never talked
about TeX. I mentioned the concept of space (and new = line)
compression.


> Btw, you haven't even mentioned the real = ideosynchrasies of TeX,
> like handling of ^^0d. That brings me to the = real issue: Do you
> actually know that most of TeX's white space = handling happens
> before tokenization, i.e., before the = programming starts at all?

No.

> You do know the basic principles of the TeX macro = proces, do you?

No. I am completely unfamiliar with TeX.


> You did understand that some people on this list = have their doubts
> and that they demand from you that you show your = basic knowledge
> before they look at your proposals?

I realise it, but I don't understand it.

Why should it be impossible to discuss my proposal? A = designer should
be able to discuss his ideas with a manual worker or = an engineer.
If a designer thinks of a car that is impossible to = build then it is
no good if the engineer says, he does not talk with = the designer
unless the designer became an engineer himself. They = could discuss
what is possible and what not. They could look for = alternatives that
satisfy both of them. They could learn from each = other.

Why couldn't we discuss my proposal? Why is my = proposal unworthy to be
looked at just because I don't know TeX? Why do so = many people tell me
that I am stupid and unworthy to listen to?

I hoped we could start a discussion. Please tell me = what exactly is
not implementable and help me to improve my = proposal.

Martin

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