Received: from mail.proteosys.com ([62.225.9.49]) by nummer-3.proteosys with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:26:58 +0200 Received: by mail.proteosys.com (8.12.9/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h67HQtPP011457 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:26:56 +0200 Received: from listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (listserv.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.27]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h67HIXmp029439; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:18:34 +0200 (MET DST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C344AC.F7DC9D00" Received: from listserv (listserv.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.27]) by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/SuSE Linux 0.6) with ESMTP id h677rPdB016396; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:18:22 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 1653 for LATEX-L@LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:18:22 +0200 Received: from relay2.uni-heidelberg.de (relay2.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.210.211]) by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/SuSE Linux 0.6) with ESMTP id h67HIMM9025141 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:18:22 +0200 Received: from mail.npc.de (fw.npc.de [62.225.140.214]) by relay2.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h67HIMGl006270 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:18:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by mail.npc.de (Postfix, from userid 1014) id 62EDD1530; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:18:20 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <3F099244.1434BFF3@MartinHensel.de> References: <3F075002.72955C93@MartinHensel.de> <16137.32354.704318.984160@pussy.npc.de> <3F099244.1434BFF3@MartinHensel.de> Return-Path: X-Mailer: VM 7.04 under 21.4 (patch 8) "Honest Recruiter" XEmacs Lucid X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jul 2003 17:26:58.0336 (UTC) FILETIME=[F80FE200:01C344AC] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.28 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Spam-Score: -19.8 () IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: Invitation for discussion: My suggestion for a LaTeX3 syntax Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 18:18:20 +0100 Message-ID: A<16137.43868.184267.445549@pussy.npc.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Re: Invitation for discussion: My suggestion for a LaTeX3 syntax Thread-Index: AcNErPg20ahL+6KWTbaWEGj9DH4ZNw== From: "Joachim Schrod" To: Reply-To: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4652 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C344AC.F7DC9D00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "MH" =3D=3D Martin Hensel writes: >> These paragraphs made quite clear that the author didn't know a >> thing about TeX constraints (and is erroneous about space handling >> in HTML and XML as well). Obviously somebody who is new to >> technical details of existing markup languages. >> >> So the probability to find something worthwile in the rest of the >> text was not high enough to spend the time reading further. MH> Could you please explain to me, where I'm wrong with HTML and XML? You complained that TeX is inconsistent in its space handling. You mentioned in your paper the example of leading spaces in lines, used for indentation, that one can do with HTML/XML/other programming languages, but not with TeX. (1) At this moment, i.e., in the first two paragraphs of your content, you mixed already your topic. You didn't write about author interface any more, but about programmer's interface. (2) In the programmer interface, it's very easy to ignore spaces at all; many TeX programmers do it. So the problem is avoidable there. (3) In author-land, where I can see your problem actually, HTML has very similar problems to TeX. White space is collapsed to one space usually, but sometimes it's ignored, sometimes it's output. Now, I'd say that more TeX users understand TeX's space processing, than HTML users understand HTML space rules. Not least that's because in the HTML arena (a) one has to look for the processors, i.e., the browsers, and their space handling; and (b) one may want to look at the definition. Concerning the browsers: they simply don't implement the standard correctly. My staff regularily has to reject designs from so-called "Web designers" who rely on Dreamweaver and don't pay enough attention to browser-specific problems. Concerning the definition, HTML is still an SGML application and thus includes all the RS/RE cruft. Not made easier by the definition of block vs. in-line elements. IMO that implies that few people do really understand the formal definition. (If you haven't appreciated that yet, buy the SGML Handbook by Charles Goldfarb and wonder about the complexity lawyers can introduce when they define formal languages.) (4) XML doesn't collapse white space. That's the job of the processor. E.g., XSLT has even special syntactic facilities to handle elements where it should be ignored (sometimes ;-) and where it shouldn't. And the quotations in your email didn't address the problem in your document at all. Yes, you quoted HTML space handling, but no, you did _not_ show the differences to TeX where HTML is supposed to be more "regular" and easier to handle for the user. Yes, you quoted the XML white space definition, but no, you did _not_ address white space handling in PCDATA. Btw, you haven't even mentioned the real ideosynchrasies of TeX, like handling of ^^0d. That brings me to the real issue: Do you actually know that most of TeX's white space handling happens before tokenization, i.e., before the programming starts at all? You do know the basic principles of the TeX macro proces, do you? You did understand that some people on this list have their doubts and that they demand from you that you show your basic knowledge before they look at your proposals? I hope that I didn't trump on you too much. To ease your feeling, I'll refrain from further contributions to this thread -- as I've said, IMO the newsgroups are a better avenue to find user feedback about your ideas than this mailing list. Cheers, Joachim -- =3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D= -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-= =3D Joachim Schrod Email: jschrod@acm.org Roedermark, Germany ``How do we persuade new users that spreading fonts across the = page like peanut butter across hot toast is not necessarily the route = to typographic excellence?'' -- Peter Flynn ------_=_NextPart_001_01C344AC.F7DC9D00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Invitation for discussion: My suggestion for a LaTeX3 = syntax

>>>>> "MH" =3D=3D Martin = Hensel <mail@MARTINHENSEL.DE> writes:

>> These paragraphs made quite clear that the = author didn't know a
>> thing about TeX constraints (and is = erroneous about space handling
>> in HTML and XML as well). Obviously somebody = who is new to
>> technical details of existing markup = languages.
>>
>> So the probability to find something = worthwile in the rest of the
>> text was not high enough to spend the time = reading further.

MH> Could you please explain to me, where I'm wrong = with HTML and XML?

You complained that TeX is inconsistent in its space = handling. You
mentioned in your paper the example of leading spaces = in lines, used
for indentation, that one can do with HTML/XML/other = programming
languages, but not with TeX.

 (1) At this moment, i.e., in the first two = paragraphs of your
     content, you mixed already = your topic. You didn't write about
     author interface any more, = but about programmer's interface.

 (2) In the programmer interface, it's very easy = to ignore spaces at
     all; many TeX programmers do = it. So the problem is avoidable
     there.

 (3) In author-land, where I can see your problem = actually, HTML has
     very similar problems to = TeX. White space is collapsed to one
     space usually, but sometimes = it's ignored, sometimes it's output.

     Now, I'd say that more TeX = users understand TeX's space
     processing, than HTML users = understand HTML space rules. Not
     least that's because in the = HTML arena (a) one has to look for
     the processors, i.e., the = browsers, and their space handling; and
     (b) one may want to look at = the definition.

     Concerning the browsers: they = simply don't implement the standard
     correctly. My staff = regularily has to reject designs from
     so-called "Web = designers" who rely on Dreamweaver and don't pay
     enough attention to = browser-specific problems.

     Concerning the definition, = HTML is still an SGML application and
     thus includes all the RS/RE = cruft. Not made easier by the
     definition of block vs. = in-line elements. IMO that implies that
     few people do really = understand the formal definition. (If you
     haven't appreciated that = yet, buy the SGML Handbook by Charles
     Goldfarb and wonder about = the complexity lawyers can introduce
     when they define formal = languages.)

 (4) XML doesn't collapse white space. That's the = job of the
     processor. E.g., XSLT has = even special syntactic facilities to
     handle elements where it = should be ignored (sometimes ;-) and
     where it shouldn't.

And the quotations in your email didn't address the = problem in your
document at all. Yes, you quoted HTML space handling, = but no, you did
_not_ show the differences to TeX where HTML is = supposed to be more
"regular" and easier to handle for the = user. Yes, you quoted the XML
white space definition, but no, you did _not_ address = white space
handling in PCDATA.

Btw, you haven't even mentioned the real = ideosynchrasies of TeX, like
handling of ^^0d. That brings me to the real issue: = Do you actually
know that most of TeX's white space handling happens = before
tokenization, i.e., before the programming starts at = all? You do know
the basic principles of the TeX macro proces, do you? = You did
understand that some people on this list have their = doubts and that
they demand from you that you show your basic = knowledge before they
look at your proposals?

I hope that I didn't trump on you too much. To ease = your feeling, I'll
refrain from further contributions to this thread -- = as I've said, IMO
the newsgroups are a better avenue to find user = feedback about your
ideas than this mailing list.

Cheers,
        = Joachim

--
=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-= =3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D= -=3D-=3D-=3D
Joachim = Schrod           &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;          Email: = jschrod@acm.org
Roedermark, Germany

        ``How do we = persuade new users that spreading fonts across the page
        like = peanut butter across hot toast is not necessarily the route to
        = typographic = excellence?''          =              = -- Peter Flynn

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