Received: from mail.proteosys.com ([62.225.9.49]) by nummer-3.proteosys with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Sun, 4 May 2003 18:02:10 +0200 Received: by mail.proteosys.com (8.12.9/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h44G26PQ024153 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 18:02:08 +0200 Received: from sun.dante.de (root@sun.dante.de [134.100.9.52]) by rzdspc1.informatik.uni-hamburg.de (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h44G1rlq010350 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Sun, 4 May 2003 18:01:53 +0200 (CEST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C31256.84BD6D00" Received: from rzdspc1.informatik.uni-hamburg.de (root@rzdspc1.informatik.uni-hamburg.de [134.100.9.61]) by sun.dante.de (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h44G1Ye1013599 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 18:01:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.185]) by rzdspc1.informatik.uni-hamburg.de (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h44G1Tlp010301 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 18:01:30 +0200 (CEST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from [212.227.126.206] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 19CLvZ-0008EB-00; Sun, 04 May 2003 18:01:25 +0200 Received: from [80.129.13.43] (helo=istrati.mittelbach-online.de) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (TLSv1:EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 3.35 #1) id 19CLvZ-0006Ko-00; Sun, 04 May 2003 18:01:25 +0200 Received: (from frank@localhost) by istrati.mittelbach-online.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id h44FuxK06873; Sun, 4 May 2003 17:56:59 +0200 In-Reply-To: <200305041506.h44F6J73012236@postman.arcor.de> References: <16051.47545.433641.880408@istrati.mittelbach-online.de><200305041506.h44F6J73012236@postman.arcor.de> Return-Path: X-Mailer: VM 6.96 under Emacs 20.7.1 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 May 2003 16:02:10.0289 (UTC) FILETIME=[84E98610:01C31256] X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.mittelbach-online.de: frank set sender to frank@mittelbach-online.de using -f X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.28 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Spam-Score: -29.9 () EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_VM,X_AUTH_WARNING Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: textcomp once more Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 16:56:59 +0100 Message-ID: <16053.14411.19419.666172@istrati.mittelbach-online.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: textcomp once more Thread-Index: AcMSVoUDofM7PNwdRy6WrvvYLIs3jw== From: "Frank Mittelbach" To: "Walter Schmidt" Cc: , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lars_Hellstr=F7m?= , Reply-To: "Frank Mittelbach" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4610 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31256.84BD6D00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Walter Schmidt writes: > On Sat, 3 May 2003 14:44:41 +0200, Frank Mittelbach wrote: >=20 > >with proper documentation=20 >=20 > Are you really going to add a chapter about textcomp.sty to > the usrguide? I can hardly believe it ;-) there is an encguide.tex that was never made publically available, = perhaps it is one day > >the default should be 5 so that using textcomp is safe by default.=20 >=20 > In this case, lots of existing documents which are loading > textcomp.sty without an option and generate _correct_ output > nowadays, will generate errors or even wrong symbols (i.e. > faked symbols, or symbols from the wrong typeface, depending > on the implementation). =20 i honnestly would like to know who the users are that have these "many documents", you perhaps? the overwhelming majority of LaTeX users will not have fonts that would = have characters accessible that are now producing an error: either the font = is already classified, eg for psnfss fonts or mfbased fonts (then the error = is correct) or it is indeed quite likely to be an error. > This anything else than "safe", and > it clashes with ther current policy of strict compatibility. it does in my opinion since there is nothing that does not allow to = reproduce the same "rubbish" or the same excat result as before. the only thing is = that the user may have to follow the instruction given on the error message. and again i claim that it is an error that in times you can use = \texteuro without any warning. and again ist is safe as people add packages like palatino etc and do = not expect that this means that their document produce incorrect results. remember you only get an error if you use one of the dangerous or wrong commands. so i claim this serves 98% of the users and the remaining 2% are not = that worse off, they get an error telling them to use "full" as an option to = get thesame result as before --- that is compatible in my definition. > I know that I'm repeating myself. We discussed this already > more than once, but I'm still not going to say "yes" to your > suggestion. =20 you don't have to, Walter, but to convince me you should explain to me = why your approach serves the majority and mine the minority > >if that produces an error then the user has two > >options: > > > > - add the font to the cfg >=20 > Ha, ha, ha! Do you seriously expect the average LaTeX user > to understand 1) what this means and 2) how this is done? yes. the majority is not those on ctt that usualy never bother to read = any documentation > > - do \usepackage[almostfull]{textcomp} % thereby modifying the = default >=20 > Why not the other way round? The "proper" documentation > should say clearly: "If you want to be warned about missing > symbols, load textcomp.sty with the option [iso-adobe]. > However, be aware that certain symbols which are actually > available in a font, may become unusable then". After all, > this is the truth, isn't it?=20 that is as much the truth as the other way around, and i agree that it would power users like you server better (but others less). for the power user like you i suggest \DeclareEncodingSubset{TS1}{?}{1} in the cfg and you are done as well once and for all. frank ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31256.84BD6D00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: textcomp once more

Walter Schmidt writes:
 > On Sat, 3 May 2003 14:44:41 +0200, Frank = Mittelbach wrote:
 >
 > >with proper documentation
 >
 > Are you really going to add a chapter = about textcomp.sty to
 > the usrguide?  I can hardly believe = it ;-)

there is an encguide.tex that was never made = publically available, perhaps it
is one day

 > >the default should be 5 so that using = textcomp is safe by default.
 >
 > In this case, lots of existing documents = which are loading
 > textcomp.sty without an option and = generate _correct_ output
 > nowadays, will generate errors or even = wrong symbols (i.e.
 > faked symbols, or symbols from the wrong = typeface, depending
 > on the implementation). 

i honnestly would like to know who the users are that = have these "many
documents", you perhaps?

the overwhelming majority of LaTeX users will not have = fonts that would have
characters accessible that are now producing an = error: either the font is
already classified, eg for psnfss fonts or mfbased = fonts (then the error is
correct) or it is indeed quite likely to be an = error.

 > This anything else than "safe", = and
 > it clashes with ther current policy of = strict compatibility.

it does in my opinion since there is nothing that does = not allow to reproduce
the same "rubbish" or the same excat result = as before. the only thing is that
the user may have to follow the instruction given on = the error message.

and again i claim that it is an error that in times = you can use \texteuro
without any warning.

and again ist is safe as people add packages like = palatino etc and do not
expect that this means that their document produce = incorrect results.

remember you only get an error if you use one of the = dangerous or wrong
commands.

so i claim this serves 98% of the users and the = remaining 2% are not that
worse off, they get an error telling them to use = "full" as an option to get
thesame result as before --- that is compatible in my = definition.


 > I know that I'm repeating myself.  We = discussed this already
 > more than once, but I'm still not going to = say "yes" to your
 > suggestion. 

you don't have to, Walter, but to convince me you = should explain to me why
your approach serves the majority and mine the = minority

 > >if that produces an error then the user = has two
 > >options:
 > >
 > > - add the font to the cfg
 >
 > Ha, ha, ha!  Do you seriously expect = the average LaTeX user
 > to understand 1) what this means and 2) = how this is done?

yes. the majority is not those on ctt that usualy = never bother to read any
documentation

 > > - do \usepackage[almostfull]{textcomp} = % thereby modifying the default
 >
 > Why not the other way round?  The = "proper" documentation
 > should say clearly:  "If you = want to be warned about missing
 > symbols, load textcomp.sty with the option = [iso-adobe].
 > However, be aware that certain symbols = which are actually
 > available in a font, may become unusable = then".  After all,
 > this is the truth, isn't it?

that is as much the truth  as the other way = around, and i agree  that it
would power users like you server better (but others = less).

for the power user like you i suggest

 \DeclareEncodingSubset{TS1}{?}{1}

in the cfg and you are done as well once and for = all.

frank

------_=_NextPart_001_01C31256.84BD6D00--