Received: from mail.proteosys.com ([62.225.9.49]) by nummer-3.proteosys with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:41:49 +0100 Received: by mail.proteosys.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h0NLfl6C014319 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:41:48 +0100 Received: from listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (listserv.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.27]) by relay2.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id h0NLV6tt025454; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:31:06 +0100 (MET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C2C328.3BD94C80" Received: from listserv (listserv.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.27]) by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.2/8.12.2/SuSE Linux 0.6) with ESMTP id h0MN04fD000617; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:23:47 +0100 Received: from LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8576 for LATEX-L@LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:23:47 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.2/8.12.2/SuSE Linux 0.6) with ESMTP id h0NLNl5f011492 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:23:47 +0100 Received: from birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie (c104-37.bas1.prp.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.104.37]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id h0NLUwXM012286 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:30:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h0NLUt9I003173 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:30:56 GMT Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id h0NLUsbH003171 for LATEX-L@LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:30:54 GMT In-Reply-To: Organization: School of Mathematics, Trinity College Dublin References: <15915.60496.798501.907773@lin2.idris.fr> <200301231843.18419.tim@birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie> Return-Path: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jan 2003 21:41:50.0026 (UTC) FILETIME=[3C75DAA0:01C2C328] User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 x-mime-autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de id h0NLNl5f011493 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.28 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Spam-Score: -6.2 () EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,GAPPY_TEXT,IN_REP_TO,NOSPAM_INC,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_03_05,USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_KMAIL Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: LICR objects in math Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:30:53 +0100 Message-ID: A<200301232130.53333.tim@birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Re: LICR objects in math Thread-Index: AcLDKDyS91gvnd2BToaD94hxZT7esA== From: "Timothy Murphy" To: Reply-To: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4480 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2C328.3BD94C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thursday 23 January 2003 20:00, David Kastrup wrote: > > (1) eTeX is better than LaTeX > > You are confused. LaTeX is a macro package which can be used under > both TeX and eTeX. I guess I should say "for LaTeX read latex throughout". I was of course referring to the program that runs when one types = l-a-t-e-x. (Reminds me of the footnote in "1066 and All That" -- for "pheasant" read "peasant" throughout.) > > (3) Therefore eTeX should be renamed LaTeX, > > and LaTeX renamed dinoTeX. > > No. eTeX would keep its name, and LaTeX would keep its name. The > executable called `latex' would refer to a LaTeX format running on > the evirtex executable. Let me reword it: elatex will be renamed latex, and latex will be renamed urlatex. > > But I do not at the moment feel any urge to use \splitdiscards or > > any of the other macros you suggest, and in fact wouldn't have the > > slightest idea how to use them anyway. > > And for that reason nobody else must ever be allowed to use them? > And LaTeX must never be improved to provide facilities that are > pretty much impossible to implement without them? If as you say LaTeX runs -- and will run? -- equally on virTeX and eTeX then surely your only problem in running eTeX is typing the extra "e" in "elatex". > Again, if you demand that you may never be able to do anything with > LaTeX beyond what you can do now, the solution is simple: don't > upgrade, ever. I don't mind upgrading every 6 TeX-months (like the speed of light, TeX-time seems to be slowing down) and am very grateful for the extra facilities that have been provided over the years. > There is no reason to switch to eTeX if eTeX features are not used, > and nobody dares use eTeX features if they must assume that they are > not available. Why on earth not "dare"? Are you saying that eTeX is on the point of expiring? > Better memory utilization, more functionality from some package (like > the trace package), more working styles, more working documents (no > room for a further dimen will get much rarer...), bidirectional > typesetting might work inadvertantly and so on. How horrible. How > devastating. The only concrete advantage you've mentioned as far as I am concerned is "bidirectional typesetting". > Please come up with a single good reason why you would consider it a > disadvantage if your favorite TeX distribution were to get an > eTeX-based latex executable and format. I would prefer to use Knuth's program unless very strong reasons were put forward to abandon it. I still think that if you want to persuade people like me of the virtues of eTeX you need to descend to our level, and show actual advantages in real LaTeX programs (including packages) which we can appreciate. It's not enough to say that there are a few people living on top of Mount Everest whose lives would be greatly simplified. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: tim@birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie tel: +353-86-233 6090 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2C328.3BD94C80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: LICR objects in math

On Thursday 23 January 2003 20:00, David Kastrup = wrote:

> > (1) eTeX is better than LaTeX
>
> You are confused.  LaTeX is a macro package = which can be used under
> both TeX and eTeX.

I guess I should say "for LaTeX read latex = throughout".
I was of course referring to the program that runs = when one types l-a-t-e-x.
(Reminds me of the footnote in "1066 and All = That" --
for "pheasant" read "peasant" = throughout.)

> > (3) Therefore eTeX should be renamed = LaTeX,
> > and LaTeX renamed dinoTeX.
>
> No.  eTeX would keep its name, and LaTeX = would keep its name.  The
> executable called `latex' would refer to a LaTeX = format running on
> the evirtex executable.

Let me reword it:
elatex will be renamed latex, and latex will be = renamed urlatex.

> > But I do not at the moment feel any urge to = use \splitdiscards or
> > any of the other macros you suggest, and in = fact wouldn't have the
> > slightest idea how to use them = anyway.
>
> And for that reason nobody else must ever be = allowed to use them?
> And LaTeX must never be improved to provide = facilities that are
> pretty much impossible to implement without = them?

If as you say LaTeX runs -- and will run? -- equally = on virTeX and eTeX
then surely your only problem in running eTeX
is typing the extra "e" in = "elatex".

> Again, if you demand that you may never be able = to do anything with
> LaTeX beyond what you can do now, the solution = is simple: don't
> upgrade, ever.

I don't mind upgrading every 6 TeX-months
(like the speed of light, TeX-time seems to be = slowing down)
and am very grateful for the extra facilities
that have been provided over the years.

> There is no reason to switch to eTeX if eTeX = features are not used,
> and nobody dares use eTeX features if they must = assume that they are
> not available.

Why on earth not "dare"?
Are you saying that eTeX is on the point of = expiring?

> Better memory utilization, more functionality = from some package (like
> the trace package), more working styles, more = working documents (no
> room for a further dimen will get much = rarer...), bidirectional
> typesetting might work inadvertantly and so = on.  How horrible.  How
> devastating.

The only concrete advantage you've mentioned as far as = I am concerned
is "bidirectional typesetting".

> Please come up with a single good reason why you = would consider it a
> disadvantage if your favorite TeX distribution = were to get an
> eTeX-based latex executable and format.

I would prefer to use Knuth's program
unless very strong reasons were put forward to = abandon it.

I still think that if you want to persuade = people  like me
of the virtues of eTeX you need to descend to our = level,
and show actual advantages in real LaTeX programs = (including packages)
which we can appreciate.

It's not enough to say that there are a few = people
living on top of Mount Everest
whose lives would be greatly simplified.



--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail: tim@birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-233 6090
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, = Dublin 2, Ireland

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