Received: from mail.proteosys.com ([62.225.9.49]) by nummer-3.proteosys with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Wed, 17 Jul 2002 23:10:49 +0200 Received: by mail.proteosys.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g6HLAQWi025108 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 23:10:27 +0200 Received: from listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (listserv.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.27]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g6HKvaWK011909; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:57:36 +0200 (MET DST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C22DD6.6CB75280" Received: from listserv (listserv.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.27]) by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.2/8.12.2/SuSE Linux 0.6) with ESMTP id g6GM04G0006287; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:58:19 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 8654 for LATEX-L@LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:58:19 +0200 Received: from relay2.uni-heidelberg.de (relay2.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.210.211]) by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.2/8.12.2/SuSE Linux 0.6) with ESMTP id g6HKwJrU013665 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:58:19 +0200 Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (mmdf@salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by relay2.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.4/8.12.4) with SMTP id g6HKvHT8010715 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:57:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from somewhere by salmon.maths.tcd.ie via UUCP id ; 17 Jul 2002 21:57:17 +0100 (BST) Received: (from tim@localhost) by alfred.murphy.ie (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g6HKtgT04393; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:55:42 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20020717023521.GA14707@dodds.net>; from vorlon@netexpress.net on Tue, Jul 16, 2002 at 09:35:23PM -0500 References: <15667.17322.923787.604569@istrati.mittelbach-online.de> <20020716094829.A3002@birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie> <20020716.135105.41626007.wlandry@ucsd.edu> <20020717022416.A3442@birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie> <20020717023521.GA14707@dodds.net> Return-Path: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jul 2002 21:10:50.0110 (UTC) FILETIME=[6D60B1E0:01C22DD6] User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.6 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: forwarded message from Jeff Licquia Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:55:42 +0100 Message-ID: A<20020717215542.B4362@birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Re: forwarded message from Jeff Licquia Thread-Index: AcIt1m2XHVdVBsckQ1+ehQFY6SL6Aw== From: "Timothy Murphy" To: Reply-To: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4319 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C22DD6.6CB75280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jul 16, 2002 at 09:35:23PM -0500, Steve Langasek wrote: > Sadly, you seem to have missed the point of Free Software altogether, > which can be stated simply as: preventing anyone from having exclusive > control of the software so that everyone can benefit. (1) The intersection of those interested in LaTeX and those seriously interested in Debian is almost empty, I imagine. I would have said it was empty, except that Frank Mittelbach seems to belong to both sets. (2) You (or someone else on the Debian "side") asked for the "LaTeX community" to comment on the discussion. I'm an ordinary LaTeX user, but I'm pretty sure that I speak for 95% (if not 100%) of LaTeX users when I say that satisfying the Debian licence comes very low indeed in my order of priorities. (3) Debian does not have a monopoly of the word "free". I suggest that if you do not want to be offensive you should say "Debian-free" or "free in the Debian sense". (4) There is no need for Debian or anyone else to modify the LaTeX = kernel, since you can make any changes you want in a package (.sty file). So the whole discussion seems to me entirely theological. (5) You speak a lot about Linux, but your approach seems to me far from that promoted by Linus Torvalds. In fact Torvalds and Knuth seem to me very similar in their viewpoints, as perhaps one might expect. > If the Latex > developers don't believe this is important enough that they will = choose > a license that complies with the Debian Free Software Guidelines, = that's > once again their right as copyright holders, but it definitely makes = it > incompatible with Debian's stated goals. I guess we'll just have to do our best to survive from day to day. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: tim@birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie tel: 086-233 6090 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland ------_=_NextPart_001_01C22DD6.6CB75280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: forwarded message from Jeff Licquia

On Tue, Jul 16, 2002 at 09:35:23PM -0500, Steve = Langasek wrote:
> Sadly, you seem to have missed the point of Free = Software altogether,
> which can be stated simply as: preventing anyone = from having exclusive
> control of the software so that everyone can = benefit.

(1) The intersection of those interested in = LaTeX
and those seriously interested in Debian is almost = empty, I imagine.
I would have said it was empty,
except that Frank Mittelbach seems to belong to both = sets.

(2) You (or someone else on the Debian = "side")
asked for the "LaTeX community" to comment = on the discussion.
I'm an ordinary LaTeX user,
but I'm pretty sure that I speak for 95% (if not = 100%) of LaTeX users
when I say that satisfying the Debian licence
comes very low indeed in my order of = priorities.

(3) Debian does not have a monopoly of the word = "free".
I suggest that if you do not want to be = offensive
you should say "Debian-free" or "free = in the Debian sense".

(4) There is no need for Debian or anyone else to = modify the LaTeX kernel,
since you can make any changes you want in a package = (.sty file).
So the whole discussion seems to me entirely = theological.

(5) You speak a lot about Linux,
but your approach seems to me far from that promoted = by Linus Torvalds.
In fact Torvalds and Knuth seem to me very similar in = their viewpoints,
as perhaps one might expect.

> If the Latex
> developers don't believe this is important = enough that they will choose
> a license that complies with the Debian Free = Software Guidelines, that's
> once again their right as copyright holders, but = it definitely makes it
> incompatible with Debian's stated goals.

I guess we'll just have to do our best to survive from = day to day.

--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail: tim@birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: 086-233 6090
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, = Dublin 2, Ireland

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