Received: from mail.proteosys.com ([62.225.9.49]) by nummer-3.proteosys with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Wed, 17 Jul 2002 00:25:16 +0200 Received: by mail.proteosys.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g6GMOpWi021611 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 00:24:52 +0200 Received: from listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (listserv.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.27]) by relay2.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g6GMGqT8023587; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 00:16:53 +0200 (MET DST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C22D17.A8D7AE00" Received: from listserv (listserv.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.27]) by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.2/8.12.2/SuSE Linux 0.6) with ESMTP id g6GM04sM006287; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 00:17:53 +0200 Received: from LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 7346 for LATEX-L@LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 00:17:53 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from relay2.uni-heidelberg.de (relay2.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.210.211]) by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.2/8.12.2/SuSE Linux 0.6) with ESMTP id g6GMHrrU006491 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 00:17:53 +0200 Received: from moutng1.kundenserver.de (moutng1.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.171]) by relay2.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g6GMGoT8023568 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 00:16:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [212.227.126.160] (helo=mrelayng0.kundenserver.de) by moutng1.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #2) id 17Uach-0003gl-00; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 00:16:47 +0200 Received: from [80.129.5.225] (helo=istrati.mittelbach-online.de) by mrelayng0.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17Uacg-000391-00; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 00:16:46 +0200 Received: (from frank@localhost) by istrati.mittelbach-online.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g6GMGTs32639; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 00:16:29 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20020716.134423.74757759.wlandry@ucsd.edu> References: <15667.17040.358381.710374@istrati.mittelbach-online.de> <20020716085602.GX15546@deadbeast.net> <15668.29885.519451.697225@istrati.mittelbach-online.de> <20020716.134423.74757759.wlandry@ucsd.edu> Return-Path: X-Mailer: VM 6.96 under Emacs 20.7.1 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jul 2002 22:25:16.0762 (UTC) FILETIME=[A94BF3A0:01C22D17] X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.mittelbach-online.de: frank set sender to frank@mittelbach-online.de using -f X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.6 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: Motivations; proposed alternative license Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 23:16:28 +0100 Message-ID: A<15668.39740.938077.519316@istrati.mittelbach-online.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Re: Motivations; proposed alternative license Thread-Index: AcItF6l2ZEZKpX5MTdacAJY7nn3Pag== From: "Frank Mittelbach" To: Reply-To: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4306 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C22D17.A8D7AE00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Walter Landry writes: > Frank Mittelbach wrote: > > So far I have seen the comments by Jeff (who goes in a lot of = detail > > through the license, for which i would like to thank him, and to > > which i intend to get back) but other than that, all I heard so far > > and repeatedly heard is "we don't like that you use clause 4 and > > therefore it is a license acceptable by us" (though in more > > elaborate words). > > Well, there were my comments that preventing the modification or > removal of .ins files goes beyond what clause 4 allows. I even gave > an example where it might be completely appropriate to do such a > thing. The message should be in the debian-legal archive. sorry, yes there are such comments and i try to pay attention to them = (that particular concern should be gone in the draft of two days ago (it was a leftover) concerning patches and klingons a) LaTeX has support for klingons (i have never tried it but it is = somewhere, i've seen it) ... :-) b) latex or rather tex is a macro language in other words yu can modify anything of it at any time during the process not just data but program. c) that means you are not restricted into only one way of patching stuff eg the package hyperref redefines a good deal of the kernel and a = large number of commands from other packages (so everybody now knows that = this packages is best loaded last:-) > In a sense, I feel your pain. You want everyone's installation of not sure > Latex to be the same to facilitate interoperability. However, free yes > software means that you give up some measure of control over your > creation. yes. we do as well about 90% of the latex software around has nothing to = do with the latex project team from which the license comes. it is neither certified or directly integrated nor anything. it improves on the kernel = or addes new features to the language (including klingon or whatever) = therby probably breaking a lot of things within the language if used together = but all that is fine and okay under the license. the license only ensures that \usepackage{klingon} \usepackage{babel} will break in the same way here as well at your desk so that if i send = you \usepackage{klingon} \usepackage{babel} \renewcommand\klingonblabla.... it will work for you (for the current document) because it worked here. does this help you too feel my pain a bit more accurrate? good night ------_=_NextPart_001_01C22D17.A8D7AE00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Motivations; proposed alternative license

Walter Landry writes:
 > Frank Mittelbach = <frank.mittelbach@latex-project.org> wrote:
 > > So far I have seen the comments by = Jeff (who goes in a lot of detail
 > > through the license, for which i = would like to thank him, and to
 > > which i intend to get back) but other = than that, all I heard so far
 > > and repeatedly heard is "we = don't like that you use clause 4 and
 > > therefore it is a license acceptable = by us" (though in more
 > > elaborate words).
 >
 > Well, there were my comments that = preventing the modification or
 > removal of .ins files goes beyond what = clause 4 allows.  I even gave
 > an example where it might be completely = appropriate to do such a
 > thing.  The message should be in the = debian-legal archive.

sorry, yes there are such comments and i try to pay = attention to them (that
particular concern should be gone in the draft of two = days ago (it was a
leftover)

concerning patches and klingons

a) LaTeX has support for klingons (i have never tried = it but it is somewhere,
i've seen it)  ... :-)

b) latex or rather tex is a macro language in other = words yu can modify
anything of it at any time during the process not = just data but program.

c) that means you are not restricted into only one way = of patching stuff
   eg the package hyperref redefines a good = deal of the kernel and a large
   number of commands from other packages = (so everybody now knows that this
   packages is best loaded last:-)


 > In a sense, I feel your pain.  You = want everyone's installation of

not sure

 > Latex to be the same to facilitate = interoperability.  However, free

yes

 > software means that you give up some = measure of control over your
 > creation.

yes. we do as well about 90% of the latex software = around has nothing to do
with the latex project team from which the license = comes. it is neither
certified or directly integrated nor anything. it = improves on the kernel or
addes new features to the language (including klingon = or whatever) therby
probably breaking a lot of things within the language = if used together but all
that is fine and okay under the license. the license = only ensures that

\usepackage{klingon}
\usepackage{babel}

will break in the same way here as well at your desk = so that if i send you

\usepackage{klingon}
\usepackage{babel}
\renewcommand\klingonblabla....

it will work for you (for the current document) = because it worked here.


does this help you too feel my pain a bit more = accurrate?

good night

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