Received: from mail.proteosys.com ([62.225.9.49]) by nummer-3.proteosys with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Tue, 16 Jul 2002 23:22:52 +0200 Received: by mail.proteosys.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g6GLMEWi021330 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 23:22:28 +0200 Received: from listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (listserv.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.27]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g6GL4TWK007132; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 23:04:29 +0200 (MET DST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C22D0E.F13E9E00" Received: from listserv (listserv.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.27]) by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.2/8.12.2/SuSE Linux 0.6) with ESMTP id g6FM03H6031169; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 23:05:31 +0200 Received: from LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 7296 for LATEX-L@LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 23:05:31 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.2/8.12.2/SuSE Linux 0.6) with ESMTP id g6GL5UrU006042 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 23:05:30 +0200 Received: from smtp.albany.edu (mail1.csc.albany.edu [169.226.1.133]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g6GL4QWK007118 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 23:04:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hilbert.math.albany.edu (hilbert.math.albany.edu [169.226.23.52]) by smtp.albany.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g6GL4NVu029484; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 17:04:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from hammond@localhost) by hilbert.math.albany.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g6GL4Mff008251; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 17:04:22 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <15668.20088.889861.816560@istrati.mittelbach-online.de> Lines: 65 References: <15668.20088.889861.816560@istrati.mittelbach-online.de> Return-Path: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jul 2002 21:22:52.0239 (UTC) FILETIME=[F16315F0:01C22D0E] User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.6 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: Motivations; proposed alternative license (was Re: LaTeX PublicProject License, Version 1.3 (DRAFT)) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 22:04:22 +0100 Message-ID: A X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Re: Motivations; proposed alternative license (was Re: LaTeX PublicProject License, Version 1.3 (DRAFT)) Thread-Index: AcItDvGA2Wc89wkCRmm0SZqHGQ67nQ== From: "William F Hammond" To: Reply-To: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4303 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C22D0E.F13E9E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry I don't know the official name for = "debian-legal@lists.debian.org". :-) (And is it the case that one or both of these lists is filtering the name of the other list from message headers? IMO discussion on this issue _should_ _be_ sent to both.) Frank Mittelbach forwards to = LATEX-L a message to debian-legal from Branden Robinson , dated Tue, 16 Jul 2002 03:56:02 -0500: > > the LATeX community understood as an important set of goals > > Uh, well, in that case I suggest drafting a Statement of Principles. > The entire raison d'etre of a copyright license is to "enforce things > legally". Perhaps you should contrain the LPPL's scope to whatever = ends > you want to achieve with that means. The major point is that both (1) LaTeX classes and (2) LaTeX packages, as well as the associated literate programming wrappers and "latex" itself, are _very_ _different_ animals from what is normally called a program, i.e., a C program, a GNU Emacs Lisp program, ... . Neither GPL nor GPPL makes much sense for LaTeX objects. > > i understand that there are a large number of people (who work > > with other type of free software) that do not like the fact that > > we preserve some rights of the users of LaTeX > > Can you enumerate what rights of the user you are preserving by > forbidding them from distributing modified files without changing the > filename? LaTeX users do not make such changes. Something in document source called "\newcommand" is the LaTeX user's way to customize. Let's not confuse the LaTeX user with the person who changes a LaTeX package without renaming it, thereby causing the user's 15 year archive of LaTeX source to break. > > It is certainly (a bit) more work to rename a file rather than to > > simply change it, but while I concur with you that for stuff which > > is essentially local to my environment this is fine (and thus > > something like GPL or whatever is appropriate) for the benefit of > > LaTeX as a freely extensible and changeable system for exchange of > > information it is not. > > I hope you'll agree with me that this statement is a subjective > analysis. Isn't it rather a rather practical and pragmatic analysis based on long experience? Please work with Frank on this. -- Bill William F. Hammond Dept. of Mathematics & Statistics 518-442-4625 The University at Albany hammond@math.albany.edu Albany, NY 12222 (U.S.A.) http://www.albany.edu/~hammond/ Dept. FAX: 518-442-4731 Never trust an SGML/XML vendor whose web page is not valid HTML. And always support affirmative action on behalf of the finite places. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C22D0E.F13E9E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Motivations; proposed alternative license (was Re: LaTeX = PublicProject License, Version 1.3 (DRAFT))

Sorry I don't know the official name for = "debian-legal@lists.debian.org".
:-)

(And is it the case that one or both of these lists is = filtering the
name of the other list from message headers?  = IMO discussion on this
issue _should_ _be_ sent to both.)

Frank Mittelbach = <frank.mittelbach@LATEX-PROJECT.ORG> forwards to LATEX-L
a message to debian-legal from Branden Robinson = <branden@debian.org>,
dated Tue, 16 Jul 2002 03:56:02 -0500:

> > the LATeX community understood as an = important set of goals
>
> Uh, well, in that case I suggest drafting a = Statement of Principles.
> The entire raison d'etre of a copyright license = is to "enforce things
> legally".  Perhaps you should contrain = the LPPL's scope to whatever ends
> you want to achieve with that means.

The major point is that both (1) LaTeX classes and (2) = LaTeX
packages, as well as the associated literate = programming wrappers and
"latex" itself, are _very_ _different_ = animals from what is normally
called a program, i.e., a C program, a GNU Emacs Lisp = program, ... .

Neither GPL nor GPPL makes much sense for LaTeX = objects.

> > i understand that there are a large number = of people (who work
> > with other type of free software) that do = not like the fact that
> > we preserve some rights of the users of = LaTeX
>
> Can you enumerate what rights of the user you = are preserving by
> forbidding them from distributing modified files = without changing the
> filename?

LaTeX users do not make such changes.  Something = in document source
called "\newcommand" is the LaTeX user's = way to customize.

Let's not confuse the LaTeX user with the person who = changes a LaTeX
package without renaming it, thereby causing the = user's 15 year
archive of LaTeX source to break.

> > It is certainly (a bit) more work to rename = a file rather than to
> > simply change it, but while I concur with = you that for stuff which
> > is essentially local to my environment this = is fine (and thus
> > something like GPL or whatever is = appropriate) for the benefit of
> > LaTeX as a freely extensible and changeable = system for exchange of
> > information it is not.
>
> I hope you'll agree with me that this statement = is a subjective
> analysis.

Isn't it rather a rather practical and pragmatic = analysis based on
long experience?

Please work with Frank on this.

          &nbs= p;            = ;            = -- Bill

William F. = Hammond           =         Dept. of Mathematics & = Statistics
518-442-4625        &nbs= p;            = ;            = The University at Albany
hammond@math.albany.edu       = ;            =    Albany, NY 12222 (U.S.A.)
http://www.albany.edu/~hammond/<= /A>           &nbs= p;    Dept. FAX: 518-442-4731

Never trust an SGML/XML vendor whose web page is not = valid HTML.
And always support affirmative action on behalf of = the finite places.

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