Received: from webgate.proteosys.de (mail.proteosys-ag.com [62.225.9.49]) by lucy.proteosys (8.11.0/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) with ESMTP id f81AQE909080 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 12:26:14 +0200 Received: by webgate.proteosys.de (8.11.4/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f81AQ9T28220 . for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 12:26:09 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C132D0.86D86700" Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailserver1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.30]) by mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f81AQ8G04293 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 12:26:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.56]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08602 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 12:26:07 +0200 (MEST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f81AQ7G04289 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 12:26:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (listserv.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.27]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f81APAb19036; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 12:25:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from listserv (listserv.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.27]) by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with ESMTP id f81AO9o15493; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 12:24:09 +0200 Received: from LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 0323 for LATEX-L@LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 12:23:21 +0200 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by listserv.uni-heidelberg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with ESMTP id f81ANLo15487 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 12:23:21 +0200 Received: from obelix.ee.duth.gr (asterix.ee.duth.gr [193.92.243.98]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f81AO8b18893 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 12:24:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (apostolo@localhost) by obelix.ee.duth.gr (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA24951 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 13:26:17 +0300 (EET DST) In-Reply-To: <15247.57417.101750.851109@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Return-Path: Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: LaTeX3 and Omega Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 11:26:17 +0100 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: From: "Apostolos Syropoulos" Sender: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" To: Reply-To: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4165 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C132D0.86D86700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 31 Aug 2001, Frank Mittelbach wrote: > > PS And of course since I don't believe that a team of two people = can > > do all these things, I definetely believe that the team must be = expanded! > > i'm not so worried about that (the german saying "is too many cooks = will spoil > the porridge") and i doubt that Omega would be where it is now had it = been > built (or probably then rather not built) by a bigger team --- just = look at > any other good programs around and you will find that typically there = are not > many key people behind it originally. I was just thinking about LaTeX and Perl. Both systems were originally created by one man. But I strongly believe that the work of some other folks have helped the systems to gain wide acceptance and to mature. Think about the NFSS and the babel package: without them LaTeX would not be the tool it is today. The same applies to Perl---the work by Tom Christiansen, Jon Orwand and many others helped to make Perl the = universal tool it is today. So, I believe that the Omega team must be expanded, unless of course someone is afraid that the copyright notice of some programs will change... (which, BTW, will never occur!) but i'm far more worried about the needed support afterwards if you want = it to be stable and used by millions Yes, but when noone really knows how things work, then we cannot ensure this. TeX the program is very well documented, but Omega is not = documented at all. As an example consider this: A recent paper by the Omega team demonstrated how one can create MathML code from mathematical = expressions. The problem with this paper is that they don't explain how we can reproduce what they write. I tried the examples without success. But, = when I checked the undocumented Omega source code and I found two = undocumented commands, \MMLstarttext and \MMLendtext. These commands must surround a formula to get MathML output... Not an ideal situation for a TeX successor... So, we need real documentation (why not use cweb for the C part of = Omega?) and a real manual. Since, there is no real manual, we do cover this "gap" in our forthcoming book on LaTeX and Lambda. But, the = documentation of the code must be the work of an expanded Omega team. A.S. **************************************************************** *Apostolos Syropoulos * *snail mail: 366, 28th October Str., GR-671 00 Xanthi, HELLAS * *email : apostolo@ocean1.ee.duth.gr * *phone num.: +30-(0)541-28704 * *home page : http://obelix.ee.duth.gr/~apostolo * **************************************************************** ------_=_NextPart_001_01C132D0.86D86700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: LaTeX3 and Omega

On Fri, 31 Aug 2001, Frank Mittelbach wrote:

>  > PS And of course since I don't believe = that a team of two people can
>  > do all these things, I definetely = believe that the team must be expanded!
>
> i'm not so worried about that (the german saying = "is too many cooks will spoil
> the porridge") and i doubt that Omega would = be where it is now had it been
> built (or probably then rather not built) by a = bigger team --- just look at
> any other good programs around and you will find = that typically there are not
> many key people behind it originally.

I was just thinking about LaTeX and Perl. Both systems = were originally
created by one man. But I strongly believe that the = work of some other
folks have helped the systems to gain wide acceptance = and to mature.
Think about the NFSS and the babel package: without = them LaTeX would not
be the tool it is today. The same applies to = Perl---the work by Tom
Christiansen, Jon Orwand and many others helped to = make Perl the universal
tool it is today. So, I believe that the Omega team = must be expanded,
unless of course someone is afraid that the copyright = notice of some
programs  will  change... (which, BTW, will = never occur!)

<snippet>
but i'm far more worried about the needed support = afterwards if you want it to
be stable and used by millions
</snippet>

Yes, but when noone really knows how things work, then = we cannot ensure
this. TeX the program is very well documented, but = Omega is not documented
at all. As an example consider this: A recent paper = by the Omega team
demonstrated how one can create MathML code from = mathematical expressions.
The problem with this paper is that they don't = explain how we can
reproduce what they write. I tried the examples = without success. But, when
I checked the undocumented Omega source code and I = found two undocumented
commands, \MMLstarttext and \MMLendtext. These = commands must surround a
formula to get MathML output... Not an ideal = situation for a TeX
successor...

So, we need real documentation (why not use cweb for = the C part of Omega?)
and a real manual. Since, there is no real manual, we = do cover this
"gap" in our forthcoming book on LaTeX and = Lambda. But, the documentation
of the code must be the work of an expanded Omega = team.

A.S.


****************************************************************=
*Apostolos = Syropoulos          &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;       *
*snail mail: 366, 28th October Str., GR-671 00  = Xanthi, HELLAS *
*email     : = apostolo@ocean1.ee.duth.gr        = ;            =     *
*phone num.: = +30-(0)541-28704         &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = *
*home page : http://obelix.ee.duth.gr/~apo= stolo          &nbs= p;     *
****************************************************************=

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