Received: from webgate.proteosys.de (mail.proteosys-ag.com [62.225.9.49]) by lucy.proteosys (8.11.0/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) with ESMTP id f4MBYtf31003 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:34:55 +0200 Received: by webgate.proteosys.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4MBYn700599 . for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:34:54 +0200 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailserver1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.30]) by mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f4MBYm028684 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:34:49 +0200 (MET DST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0E2B3.39049980" Received: from mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.57]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03963 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:34:48 +0200 (MEST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (mail.listserv.gmd.de [192.88.97.5]) by mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f4MBYl028676 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:34:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (192.88.97.5) by mail.listserv.gmd.de (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <8.2CA7B21F@mail.listserv.gmd.de>; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:32:56 +0200 Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 496518 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:34:43 +0200 Received: from ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (mail.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.234]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA20981 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:34:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA115626 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:34:43 +0200 Received: from abel.math.umu.se (abel.math.umu.se [130.239.20.139]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f4MBYg128921 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:34:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [130.239.20.144] (mac144.math.umu.se [130.239.20.144]) by abel.math.umu.se (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA16295; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:31:13 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: References: <15112.62969.545010.438829@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <15111.36254.279748.954703@hoelderlin.localdomain> <200105161742.MAA02503@riemann.math.twsu.edu> Return-Path: X-Sender: lars@abel.math.umu.se x-mime-autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de id NAA20982 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: Multilingual Encodings Summary 2.2 Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 12:34:35 +0100 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lars_Hellstr=F6m?= Sender: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" To: "Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L" Reply-To: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4101 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0E2B3.39049980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 12.04 +0200 2001-05-22, Hans Aberg wrote: >At 23:20 +0200 2001/05/21, Lars Hellstr=F6m wrote: >>>Could you define the _problem_ you are trying to solve? >> >>...On one side, the problem is that in LaTeX today, I'm not >>expected to write what I mean in math, I'm expected to specify the = visual >>expression for what I mean. This goes very much against the general = trend >>in the development of LaTeX, which is that you should say what you = mean and >>leave to the style (documentclass, packages used, preamble = declarations, >>etc.) to sort out what is the visual expression for this. > >There is nothing wrong with this objective in itself, but the = complication >is the diverse use of mathematics and how mathematicians write it. The conceivable limitations this would impose (and you still haven't produced a single example of a published paper in which there would have been any limitation at all!) are negligible in comparison to the limitations posed by the blackboard as the primary medium for new mathematical notation and the fine motor skills of the average mathematician. If you don't believe this, you can try the following experiment: 1. On a blackboard, using a piece of chalk, write down the calculations showing Jacobi's identity $$ [[\phi,\emptyset],\varnothing] + [[\emptyset,\varnothing],\phi] + [[\varnothing,\phi],\emptyset] =3D 0 $$ where $[a,b]:=3Dab-ba$ is the commutator, the underlying ring is = associative but not commutative, and using precisely those glyphs from Computer = Modern to denote your variables (you've claimed yourself that they can be used = to denote different quantities). 2. Convince another mathematician that it is possible to see which = symbol is which without relying on the structure of the calculations. I doubt you'll make it. I know I wouldn't. Lars Hellstr=F6m ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0E2B3.39049980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Multilingual Encodings Summary 2.2

At 12.04 +0200 2001-05-22, Hans Aberg wrote:
>At 23:20 +0200 2001/05/21, Lars Hellstr=F6m = wrote:
>>>Could you define the _problem_ you are = trying to solve?
>>
>>...On one side, the problem is that in LaTeX = today, I'm not
>>expected to write what I mean in math, I'm = expected to specify the visual
>>expression for what I mean. This goes very = much against the general trend
>>in the development of LaTeX, which is that = you should say what you mean and
>>leave to the style (documentclass, packages = used, preamble declarations,
>>etc.) to sort out what is the visual = expression for this.
>
>There is nothing wrong with this objective in = itself, but the complication
>is the diverse use of mathematics and how = mathematicians write it.

The conceivable limitations this would impose (and you = still haven't
produced a single example of a published paper in = which there would have
been any limitation at all!) are negligible in = comparison to the
limitations posed by the blackboard as the primary = medium for new
mathematical notation and the fine motor skills of = the average
mathematician. If you don't believe this, you can try = the following
experiment:

1. On a blackboard, using a piece of chalk, write down = the calculations
showing Jacobi's identity
$$
  [[\phi,\emptyset],\varnothing] + = [[\emptyset,\varnothing],\phi] +
  [[\varnothing,\phi],\emptyset] =3D 0
$$
where $[a,b]:=3Dab-ba$ is the commutator, the = underlying ring is associative
but not commutative, and using precisely those glyphs = from Computer Modern
to denote your variables (you've claimed yourself = that they can be used to
denote different quantities).

2. Convince another mathematician that it is possible = to see which symbol
is which without relying on the structure of the = calculations.

I doubt you'll make it. I know I wouldn't.

Lars Hellstr=F6m

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