Received: from webgate.proteosys.de (mail.proteosys-ag.com [62.225.9.49]) by lucy.proteosys (8.11.0/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) with ESMTP id f4HFS7f08400 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 17:28:07 +0200 Received: by webgate.proteosys.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4HFS6707523 . for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 17:28:06 +0200 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailserver1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.30]) by mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f4HFS6027337 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 17:28:06 +0200 (MET DST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0DEE5.F8D59D80" Received: from mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.56]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA13613 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 17:28:05 +0200 (MEST) Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (mail.listserv.gmd.de [192.88.97.5]) by mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f4HFS5U26466 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 17:28:05 +0200 (MET DST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (192.88.97.5) by mail.listserv.gmd.de (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <5.F4FE69D4@mail.listserv.gmd.de>; Thu, 17 May 2001 17:26:22 +0200 Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 495821 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 17 May 2001 17:28:02 +0200 Received: from ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (mail.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.234]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02507 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 17:28:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA29578 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 17:28:01 +0200 Received: from hromeo.algonet.se (hromeo.algonet.se [194.213.74.51]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id f4HFRxP22650 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 17:27:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 2753 invoked from network); 17 May 2001 17:27:57 +0200 Received: from delenn.tninet.se (HELO algonet.se) (195.100.94.104) by hromeo.algonet.se with SMTP; 17 May 2001 17:27:57 +0200 Received: from [195.100.226.134] (du134-226.ppp.su-anst.tninet.se [195.100.226.134]) by delenn.tninet.se (BLUETAIL Mail Robustifier 2.2.2) with ESMTP id 978691.113275.990delenn-s2 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 17:27:55 +0200 In-Reply-To: References: <200105161742.MAA02503@riemann.math.twsu.edu> Return-Path: X-Sender: haberg@pop.matematik.su.se x-mime-autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de id RAA02508 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: Multilingual Encodings Summary 2.2 Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 16:26:51 +0100 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: From: "Hans Aberg" Sender: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" To: "Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L" Reply-To: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4075 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0DEE5.F8D59D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 05/15/2001 at 03:04 PM, Lars Hellstr=F6m wrote: >I math fonts something like that could be used to handle the choice >between \epsilon and \varepsilon. As I understand it, these are >semantically equivalent---i.e., people will think you've done something >wrong if you try to use them both in the same formula to mean different >things On Wed, 16 May 2001, Phil Parker wrote: >Some might, but most (at least in the parts of math I read) wouldn't. The \epsilon and \varepsilon are definitely semantically different in (pure) math, At 17:51 +0430 2001/05/17, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: >Well, with the latest version of Unicode, 3.1, \varepsilon is a = different >thing from \epsilon. and this is the reason they are different in Unicode. (Or rather, = perhaps the STIX people took it directly out of the TeX book, but according to = the Unicode rule that semantically different symbols should have different entries, these two epsilon forms should have different representation in Unicode.) Phil Parker wrote: > The general rule of thumb seems to be: if they look different, they = are > (mathematically) different. To a high degree this is so, but especially in the past, characters may have looked different simply because one couldn't find the right ones. This was the case for example when trying to make a choice between \varepsilon and \epsilon when typewriting a manuscript. For example, = IBM's typewriter symbol head did not supply both. >> Before the standardization of the \in >> symbol, \epsilon was used to mean "is an element of" -- and sometimes = to >> also be the classical analysis "epsilon" in the same formula! I think you might find old books also using \varepsilon indicating set membership. So just go ahead and use \epsilon and \varepsilon in the same formula. Phil Parker wrote: >Before the standardization of the \in >symbol, \epsilon was used to mean "is an element of" -- and sometimes = to >also be the classical analysis "epsilon" in the same formula! You could also try use $i$ in the same formula indicating both a = summation index and sqrt(-1) to see how people react. :-) If they don't like it, a possibility is to typeset the imaginary unit in an upright font, and the summation index in an oblique font. It is important to note however that the math character set is not = constant but evolving, and the use is not even always logical in the formal sense = of logic. Hans Aberg * Email: Hans Aberg * Home Page: * AMS member listing: ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0DEE5.F8D59D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Multilingual Encodings Summary 2.2

On 05/15/2001 at 03:04 PM, Lars Hellstr=F6m = <Lars.Hellstrom@MATH.UMU.SE>
wrote:
>I math fonts something like that could be used to = handle the choice
>between \epsilon and \varepsilon. As I understand = it, these are
>semantically equivalent---i.e., people will think = you've done something
>wrong if you try to use them both in the same = formula to mean different
>things

On Wed, 16 May 2001, Phil Parker wrote:
>Some might, but most (at least in the parts of = math I read) wouldn't.

The \epsilon and \varepsilon are definitely = semantically different in
(pure) math,

At 17:51 +0430 2001/05/17, Roozbeh Pournader = wrote:
>Well, with the latest version of Unicode, 3.1, = \varepsilon is a different
>thing from \epsilon.

and this is the reason they are different in Unicode. = (Or rather, perhaps
the STIX people took it directly out of the TeX book, = but according to the
Unicode rule that semantically different symbols = should have different
entries, these two epsilon forms should have = different representation in
Unicode.)

Phil Parker wrote:
> The general rule of thumb seems to be: if they = look different, they are
> (mathematically) different.

To a high degree this is so, but especially in the = past, characters may
have looked different simply because one couldn't = find the right ones.

This was the case for example when trying to make a = choice between
\varepsilon and \epsilon when typewriting a = manuscript. For example, IBM's
typewriter symbol head did not supply both.

>> Before the standardization of the \in
>> symbol, \epsilon was used to mean "is = an element of" -- and sometimes to
>> also be the classical analysis = "epsilon" in the same formula!

I think you might find old books also using = \varepsilon indicating set
membership.

So just go ahead and use \epsilon and \varepsilon in = the same formula.

Phil Parker wrote:
>Before the standardization of the \in
>symbol, \epsilon was used to mean "is an = element of" -- and sometimes to
>also be the classical analysis = "epsilon" in the same formula!

You could also try use $i$ in the same formula = indicating both a summation
index and sqrt(-1) to see how people react. :-) If = they don't like it, a
possibility is to typeset the imaginary unit in an = upright font, and the
summation index in an oblique font.

It is important to note however that the math = character set is not constant
but evolving, and the use is not even always logical = in the formal sense of
logic.

  Hans Aberg
          &nbs= p;       * Email: Hans Aberg <mailto:haberg@member.ams.org>= ;
          &nbs= p;       * Home Page: <http://www.matematik.su.se/~= haberg/>
          &nbs= p;       * AMS member listing: <http://www.ams.org/cml/>

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