Received: from webgate.proteosys.de (mail.proteosys-ag.com [62.225.9.49]) by lucy.proteosys (8.11.0/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) with ESMTP id f1FL14H19483 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:01:04 +0100 Received: by webgate.proteosys.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f1FL13d12035 . for ; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:01:03 +0100 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailserver1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.30]) by mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f1FL0w725883 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:00:58 +0100 (MET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C09792.6876A800" Received: from mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.56]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA27322 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:00:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (mail.listserv.gmd.de [192.88.97.5]) by mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f1FL0vM10711 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:00:57 +0100 (MET) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (192.88.97.5) by mail.listserv.gmd.de (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <12.388E21B7@mail.listserv.gmd.de>; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:00:49 +0100 Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 489298 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:41:12 +0100 Received: from ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (mail.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.234]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA21654 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:41:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA49936 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:41:04 +0100 Received: from knatte.tninet.se (knatte.tninet.se [195.100.94.10]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id f1FKf6x06363 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:41:06 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 26180 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2001 21:41:03 +0100 Received: from delenn.tninet.se (HELO algonet.se) (195.100.94.104) by knatte.tninet.se with SMTP; 15 Feb 2001 21:41:03 +0100 Received: from [195.100.226.147] (du185-226.ppp.su-anst.tninet.se [195.100.226.185]) by delenn.tninet.se (BLUETAIL Mail Robustifier 2.2.1) with ESMTP id 863470.269661.982delenn-s0 ; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:41:01 +0100 In-Reply-To: <200102151830.MAA57764@dcdrjh.fnal.gov> References: Return-Path: X-Sender: haberg@pop.matematik.su.se Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: Side remarks about TeX input sequence Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:29:07 +0100 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: From: "Hans Aberg" Sender: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" To: "Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L" Reply-To: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3944 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C09792.6876A800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >|>|Today, which ones? > >|> Compaq OpenVMS and IBM OS/MVS are two examples > >|Are these OS's in continued widespread use, or are they dying? -- The = thing >|is that without those OS line separator conventions, one can decide = that a >|line separator should be \n, \r, or a \r\n (as in Java), and that = would be >|platform independent. > > I am assuming that you are ignorant and not being sarcastic. Right. -- In my own safe world there are only UNIX, MacOS, and MSOS. I = have absolutely no knowledge about the others. And this line separator keeps popping up all the time when porting software. So I am curious about = other models, newlines, all right, but also in general. I got an offline explanation by Phillip Helbig how VMS works. > Compaq OpenVMS is dying, I admit. It is the operating system > for the former Digital Equipment Corporation computers, = including > both DEC VAX computers and DEC Alpha computers. But, there are > quite a few of them still running and many are becoming home or > personal systems. TeX and LaTeX are available for them. > > I do not see that International Business Machines Corporation > going out of business any time soon nor do I see that IBM would > be withdrawning its flagship operating system for its large > mainframe computers. These computers have an upward compatible > CISC architecture that dates its beginnings from the late 1950's > and which had single system installations with multiple = gigabytes > of RAM and multiple terabytes of disk or disk-like storage in = the > late 1970's (I know this because I worked on some). These = computers > supported some form of interactive user environments since the > early 1970's including CICS, TSO and POSIX-X/OPEN environments > and frequently support several thousand users at the same time. > I seem to recall that TeX and LaTeX has been ported at least > once to such systems. > > I feel that it would be appropriate not to preclude such systems > in the future. All that would be required would be to do a > record level translation at TeX's lips to trim trailing spaces > if the record format is fixed and append a line terminator and > feed that to TeX's mouth. Thank you for your explanation. Incidentally, I think that the new MacOS X (Mach based and BSD on the = side) uses something similar to VMS with file attributes (but I have not seen = it in real life). From what I understand from VMS, one can set a file attributes to = provide the desired translations. Thus, even if one writes a version where files are opened as binary, with say \n, \r, \r\n interpreted as newlines, one can set an attribute to provide the proper translation; or this was the impression I got from Phillip Helbig's description. -- Under UNIX, MacOS, or MSOS, binary files are not translated at all, = so if one does not make the right newline convention or translate the files first by some other means, it will not work. Hans Aberg ------_=_NextPart_001_01C09792.6876A800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Side remarks about TeX input sequence

>|>|Today, which ones?
>
>|>     Compaq OpenVMS and = IBM OS/MVS are two examples
>
>|Are these OS's in continued widespread use, or = are they dying? -- The thing
>|is that without those OS line separator = conventions, one can decide that a
>|line separator should be \n, \r, or a \r\n (as = in Java), and that would be
>|platform independent.
>
>       I am = assuming that you are ignorant and not being sarcastic.

Right. -- In my own safe world there are only UNIX, = MacOS, and MSOS. I have
absolutely no knowledge about the others. And this = line separator keeps
popping up all the time when porting software. So I = am curious about other
models, newlines, all right, but also in = general.

I got an offline explanation by Phillip Helbig how VMS = works.

>       Compaq = OpenVMS is dying, I admit.  It is the operating system
>       for the = former Digital Equipment Corporation computers, including
>       both DEC VAX = computers and DEC Alpha computers.  But, there are
>       quite a few = of them still running and many are becoming home or
>       personal = systems.  TeX and LaTeX are available for them.
>
>       I do not see = that International Business Machines Corporation
>       going out of = business any time soon nor do I see that IBM would
>       be = withdrawning its flagship operating system for its large
>       mainframe = computers.  These computers have an upward compatible
>       CISC = architecture that dates its beginnings from the late 1950's
>       and which = had single system installations with multiple gigabytes
>       of RAM and = multiple terabytes of disk or disk-like storage in the
>       late 1970's = (I know this because I worked on some).  These computers
>       supported = some form of interactive user environments since the
>       early 1970's = including CICS, TSO and POSIX-X/OPEN environments
>       and = frequently support several thousand users at the same time.
>       I seem to = recall that TeX and LaTeX has been ported at least
>       once to such = systems.
>
>       I feel that = it would be appropriate not to preclude such systems
>       in the = future.  All that would be required would be to do a
>       record level = translation at TeX's lips to trim trailing spaces
>       if the = record format is fixed and append a line terminator and
>       feed that to = TeX's mouth.

Thank you for your explanation.

Incidentally, I think that the new MacOS X (Mach based = and BSD on the side)
uses something similar to VMS with file attributes = (but I have not seen it
in real life).

>From what I understand from VMS, one can set a = file attributes to provide
the desired translations. Thus, even if one writes a = version where files
are opened as binary, with say \n, \r, \r\n = interpreted as newlines, one
can set an attribute to provide the proper = translation; or this was the
impression I got from Phillip Helbig's = description.

-- Under UNIX, MacOS, or MSOS, binary files are not = translated at all, so
if one does not make the right newline convention or = translate the files
first by some other means, it will not work.

  Hans Aberg

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