Received: from webgate.proteosys.de (mail.proteosys-ag.com [62.225.9.49]) by lucy.proteosys (8.11.0/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) with ESMTP id f1EIZDH03341 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:35:13 +0100 Received: by webgate.proteosys.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f1EIZCd07437 . for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:35:12 +0100 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailserver1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.30]) by mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f1EIZC708184 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:35:12 +0100 (MET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C096B4.DE0C4680" Received: from mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.56]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA29442 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:35:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (mail.listserv.gmd.de [192.88.97.5]) by mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f1EIZAM23527 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:35:10 +0100 (MET) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (192.88.97.5) by mail.listserv.gmd.de (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <6.B045D406@mail.listserv.gmd.de>; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:35:02 +0100 Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 489019 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:35:07 +0100 Received: from ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (mail.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.234]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA28016 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:35:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA36326 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:35:05 +0100 Received: from server-13.tower-4.starlabs.net (mail.london-1.starlabs.net [212.125.75.12]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id f1EIZ6x01422 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:35:06 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 17391 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2001 18:31:49 -0000 Received: from nagmx1e.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.232.54.130) by server-13.tower-4.starlabs.net with SMTP; 14 Feb 2001 18:31:49 -0000 Received: from penguin.nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@penguin.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.14]) by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA08020 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 18:35:00 GMT Received: by penguin.nag.co.uk (8.9.3) id SAA07273; Wed, 14 Feb 2001 18:31:45 GMT In-Reply-To: <3A8A1ADF.CE5F089F@triumf.ca> (message from Donald Arseneau on Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:42:55 -0800) References: <3A8A1ADF.CE5F089F@triumf.ca> Return-Path: X-VirusChecked: Checked Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: Multilingual Encodings Summary Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:31:45 +0100 Message-ID: <200102141831.SAA07273@penguin.nag.co.uk> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: From: "David Carlisle" Sender: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" To: "Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L" Reply-To: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3925 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C096B4.DE0C4680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Donald> But TeX really is 8bit. Donald> Donald> What were you thinking of? That the TeX3 8 bit extensions don't really work that well. A 7bit TeX could pretend that there was basically only one encoding around: ASCII = (as extended to some keyboard once found in some university somewhere) (or at least you knew which system you were on and your tex system could use xchr translations if you were not using ASCII) But 8bit encodings have never been even remotely like that. A "natural" system designed for 8bit encodings would have some sensible way of mapping different input encodings. TeX does not, and so we get into the whole business of active characters and inputenc. This basically works as specified but that does not mean it always works as users expect, and it's a major complication within = the latex kernel to pass all these things round without it blowing up. Similarly the difficulty of producing hyphenation tables that work with different 8bit font encodings. (Not so much the perceived difficulty of distributing such a thing, suitable macros could fix that, more the impossibility of sharing the tables at tex's inner level) TeX3 is really 8bit in the sense that all the restrictions to 127 became restrictions to 255. But a real 8bit system would have done more, just as omega isn't just a matter of taking restrictions to 2^8 and making them 2^16 or 2^32 (even if that was the first stage). David _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet = delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information = visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp ------_=_NextPart_001_01C096B4.DE0C4680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Multilingual Encodings Summary

Donald> But TeX really is 8bit.
Donald>
Donald> What were you thinking of?

That the TeX3 8 bit extensions don't really work that = well. A 7bit TeX
could pretend that there was basically only one = encoding around: ASCII (as
extended to some keyboard once found in some = university somewhere)
(or at least you knew which system you were on and = your tex system could
use xchr translations if you were not using = ASCII)

But 8bit encodings have never been even remotely like = that.
A "natural" system designed for 8bit = encodings would have some
sensible way of mapping different input = encodings.

TeX does not, and so we get into the whole business of = active characters
and inputenc. This basically works as specified but = that does not mean
it always works as users expect, and it's a major = complication within the
latex kernel to pass all these things round without = it blowing up.

Similarly the difficulty of producing hyphenation = tables that work with
different 8bit font encodings. (Not so much the = perceived difficulty of
distributing such a thing, suitable macros could fix = that, more the
impossibility of sharing the tables at tex's inner = level)

TeX3 is really 8bit in the sense that all the = restrictions to 127 became
restrictions to 255.

But a real 8bit system would have done more, just as = omega isn't just a
matter of taking restrictions to 2^8 and making them = 2^16 or 2^32 (even
if that was the first stage).

David

________________________________________________________________= _____
This message has been checked for all known viruses = by Star Internet delivered
through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For = further information visit
http://www.star.net.uk/stats.as= p

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