Received: from webgate.proteosys.de (mail.proteosys-ag.com [62.225.9.49]) by lucy.proteosys (8.11.0/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) with ESMTP id f1CHb8H21302 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:37:08 +0100 Received: by webgate.proteosys.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f1CHb8d30116 . for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:37:08 +0100 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailserver1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.30]) by mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f1CHb7714022 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:37:07 +0100 (MET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0951A.6BFFFA00" Received: from mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.56]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA05499 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:37:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (mail.listserv.gmd.de [192.88.97.5]) by mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f1CHb6M00969 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:37:06 +0100 (MET) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (192.88.97.5) by mail.listserv.gmd.de (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <15.3F2F0D59@mail.listserv.gmd.de>; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:36:59 +0100 Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 488920 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:37:02 +0100 Received: from ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (mail.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.234]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA13236 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:37:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA35330 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:37:01 +0100 Received: from PURVEYOR8.Dresdnerbank.de (purveyor8.dresdnerbank.de [193.194.7.54]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f1CHb1u00940 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:37:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from ffzj0yga.dresdner.net (unverified) by PURVEYOR8.Dresdnerbank.de (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:37:00 +0100 Received: from ohio.bank.dresdner.net (ffzj0xfo.bank.dresdner.net [130.62.29.102]) by ffzj0yga.dresdner.net (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA12235 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:36:59 +0100 (MET) Received: (from schrod@localhost) by ohio.bank.dresdner.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id SAA08096; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:39:07 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <14984.3191.15849.63044@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <14982.58110.488910.461010@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <14982.45082.150652.74719@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <14982.51989.349221.285820@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <14982.52380.897443.588837@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <14982.53422.402117.63648@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <14983.2022.587938.334186@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <14983.47178.155759.245619@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> <20010212145128.A15449@turing.maths.tcd.ie> <14983.64319.129182.60126@fell.open.ac.uk> <14984.64.432416.64500@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> <14984.2975.249847.854981@fell.open.ac.uk> <14984.3191.15849.63044@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> Return-Path: X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.15p5 XEmacs Lucid Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: LaTeX's internal char prepresentation (UTF8 or Unicode?) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:39:07 +0100 Message-ID: <200102121739.SAA08096@ohio.bank.dresdner.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: From: "Joachim Schrod" Sender: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" To: "Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L" Reply-To: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3860 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0951A.6BFFFA00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "SR" =3D=3D Sebastian Rahtz = writes: SR> Chris Rowley writes: >> > which is the important bit? which is the "unique public de facto >> > archival and communication language", exactly? >> >> You forgot >> >> 6 None of the above SR> You are ducking the (semi-serious) issue. What *do* you mean by the SR> archival and communication language? the fact that the word "TeX" is SR> recognized by mathematicians the world over? so long as they don't = try SR> to exchange files.... SR> In case anyone thinks I am just being cynical, my personal interests SR> are 1) and 5), and the rest can go overboard.... But that does not imply that many people do not need 3 TeX the archival-files-which-must-format-identically and 7 the math part of the TeX typesetting markup language 8 the math part of the TeX typesetting markup language, combined with the markup of the AMS document classes which is some wierd kind of intersection between 2, 5, and 6. And for certain areas in scientific research 7 and 8 is a communication method, and not just a means to typeset some papers. And, while I'm at it: IMO, neither XML will take over role 5 completely, and MathML will not take role 7 or 8. Well, hopefully, they won't. As an authoring language, XML is inadequate beyond recognition. It's reasonably good for exchange of data and well suited for archiving documents, but not made for human consumption. And Sebastian, please don't come with XML-aware editors that'll hide the markup for the author. I'm waiting since more than a decade for such beasts (i.e., SGML/XML editors) that are both usable and easily deployable -- and still psgmls on (X)Emacs is one of the best authoring environments around; that's a shame. I had more than my share of XML deployment projects in industrial (i.e., real-world, not academic) environments; and all showed that the hype that's spread by XML fanatics isn't worth the paper it's printed on (or the disk space it's stored in). I'll tell you, these projects were more than depressing... Cheers, Joachim -- =3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D= -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-= =3D Joachim Schrod Email: jschrod@npc.de Net & Publication Consultance GmbH Tel.: +49-6074-861530 Roedermark, Germany Fax: +49-6074-861531 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0951A.6BFFFA00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: LaTeX's internal char prepresentation (UTF8 or = Unicode?)

>>>>> "SR" =3D=3D Sebastian = Rahtz <sebastian.rahtz@COMPUTING-SERVICES.OXFORD.AC.UK> = writes:

SR> Chris Rowley writes:
>> > which is the important bit? which is = the "unique public de facto
>> > archival and communication = language", exactly?
>>
>> You forgot
>>
>> 6 None of the above

SR> You are ducking the (semi-serious) issue. What = *do* you mean by the
SR> archival and communication language? the fact = that the word "TeX" is
SR> recognized by mathematicians the world over? = so long as they don't try
SR> to exchange files....

SR> In case anyone thinks I am just being cynical, = my personal interests
SR> are 1) and 5), and the rest can go = overboard....

But that does not imply that many people do not = need

 3 TeX the = archival-files-which-must-format-identically

and

 7 the math part of the TeX typesetting markup = language
 8 the math part of the TeX typesetting markup = language, combined
   with the markup of the AMS document = classes

which is some wierd kind of intersection between 2, 5, = and 6.

And for certain areas in scientific research 7 and 8 = is a
communication method, and not just a means to typeset = some papers.


And, while I'm at it: IMO, neither XML will take over = role 5
completely, and MathML will not take role 7 or 8. = Well, hopefully,
they won't.

As an authoring language, XML is inadequate beyond = recognition. It's
reasonably good for exchange of data and well suited = for archiving
documents, but not made for human consumption. And = Sebastian, please
don't come with XML-aware editors that'll hide the = markup for the
author. I'm waiting since more than a decade for such = beasts (i.e.,
SGML/XML editors) that are both usable and easily = deployable -- and
still psgmls on (X)Emacs is one of the best authoring = environments
around; that's a shame. I had more than my share of = XML deployment
projects in industrial (i.e., real-world, not = academic) environments;
and all showed that the hype that's spread by XML = fanatics isn't worth
the paper it's printed on (or the disk space it's = stored in). I'll
tell you, these projects were more than = depressing...

Cheers,
        = Joachim

--
=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-= =3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D= -=3D-=3D-=3D
Joachim = Schrod           &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;          Email: = jschrod@npc.de
Net & Publication Consultance = GmbH           &nb= sp;  Tel.:  +49-6074-861530
Roedermark, = Germany           =             &= nbsp;     Fax:   +49-6074-861531

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