Received: from webgate.proteosys.de (mail.proteosys-ag.com [62.225.9.49]) by lucy.proteosys (8.11.0/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) with ESMTP id f1BKS4H12065 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:28:04 +0100 Received: by webgate.proteosys.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f1BKS3d26184 . for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:28:03 +0100 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailserver1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.30]) by mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f1BKS3725351 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:28:03 +0100 (MET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C09469.22A3A200" Received: from mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.56]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA22073 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:28:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (mail.listserv.gmd.de [192.88.97.5]) by mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f1BKS1M13586 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:28:01 +0100 (MET) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (192.88.97.5) by mail.listserv.gmd.de (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <15.F5890396@mail.listserv.gmd.de>; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:27:54 +0100 Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 487763 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:27:58 +0100 Received: from ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (mail.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.234]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA26493 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:27:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA20800 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:27:57 +0100 Received: from moutvdom00.kundenserver.de (moutvdom00.kundenserver.de [195.20.224.149]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f1BKRuu20100 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:27:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from [195.20.224.208] (helo=mrvdom01.schlund.de) by moutvdom00.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 14S36C-0005a0-00 for LATEX-L@urz.uni-heidelberg.de; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:27:56 +0100 Received: from manz-3e3648af.pool.mediaways.net ([62.54.72.175] helo=istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de) by mrvdom01.schlund.de with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 14S365-00054G-00 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:27:49 +0100 Received: (from latex3@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) id VAA13000; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:25:41 +0100 In-Reply-To: <14982.58110.488910.461010@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <14982.45082.150652.74719@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <14982.51989.349221.285820@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <14982.52380.897443.588837@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <14982.53422.402117.63648@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <14982.58110.488910.461010@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Return-Path: X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under Emacs 20.4.1 X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: latex3 set sender to frank@mittelbach-online.de using -f Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: LaTeX's internal char prepresentation (UTF8 or Unicode?) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:25:40 +0100 Message-ID: <14982.62788.594059.450139@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: From: "Frank Mittelbach" Sender: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" To: "Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L" Reply-To: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3813 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C09469.22A3A200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marcel, > > which is exactly what i mean: you have to shout from the > > outside. so if i get a file by mail and process it i wouldn't know > > what to do with it. > > If you didn't tell me anything, I would run it with the (hopefully > some day to be default) input encoding UTF8. If your file was clean > ASCII, it would work in any case. Only if you had used some limited = 8 > bit encoding you would need to tell me about the encoding explicitly. my prediction is that for a good number of years to come you have to = live with documents being in current type of 8bit encodings. anyway, that's again = the input encoding part which I think is not that interesting. right now I = don't think anything other than - default ascii (one day perhaps in fact default utf8) - special input encoding used requires explicit mentioning in the = document, eg via some sort of inputenc declaration is suitable for the near future (and also in my opinion) sufficient > > the switch to 2e was a very valuable and sad lession in this > > respect. > > I am not sure what you are referring to. From my limited experience = I > can see two problems with 2e: my guess is your experience is related to Germany which from the outset = was 2e positive for various reasons, one of it being a strong base for NFSS1 = and International LaTeX. i was referring to the fact that "nearly" 2e died a death like say = lollipop (which is quite a nice format but never got used); ie that people didn't = even install it and if you don't have the base then you don't get new = packages or anything. > - Many users weren't using the new features and running in > compatibility mode. This may be sad, but it has nothing to do with > the underlying engine, and everything to do with changes (to the > better) in the LaTeX user interface. that would have been an acceptable (though not nice) start of = acceptance, far more problematical would have been people sticking with 2.09 and = refusing to use it. it took a very long time for american (and other) journals, say, = to accept 2e sources. > > but more importantly and that is my second point or the point i > > tried to make: LaTeX should "work" on TeX as a platform. so if i > > would build the kernel in a way that this is not possible then > > people would not go with LaTeX not for a long time. > > It is not for me to judge if TeX as an engine is sufficient or > desirable, I don't know the real issues well enough. in many respects it is not but so far it is a) the most widely available one b) the most stable one (everywhere the same) c) it doesn't have the problem of maintenance (even if no bugs get = fixed anymore) d) it doesn't have the problem of featurism, ie it is stable and = reliable most or even all of the successors of TeX have been under strong = development which is fine as such but LaTeX also requires a strong compatibility = between different sites and that is not provided if the underlying program = changes a lot. pdftex is a good example, in itself a success it was of no much = use to parse source files around using anything other than the basic "don't = output dvi output pdf" until recently where it finally got more or less stable. problem with pdftex now is that it lacks a suitable maintenance future given that Than might not be able to support it much longer. if you look at it from the point of available successors: - etex is stable but the features are far too internal to make a = convincing argument for people to switch to a version running only on that = program we tried to get further features into etex hoping to get a version = which would allow to produce things really selling but unfortunately that = never got over a number of specification sessions (see project web site = articles again http://www.latex-project.org/papers/etex-meeting-notes.pdf ) - pdftex has a (potential) maintenance problem (and also lacks the = features i would like to see in a successor of TeX) - omega is or was up to now too unstable in its features, ie far too = much evolving to base LaTeX on it and also lacks above features to some extend. i guess it will get stable now (if not already being so), but = it is a pity (though very understandable) that it mainly tried to solve one = part of the picture. so if there is a new latex which replaces 2e then it needs a basis fast = or else too many people will stick with 2e; then the professional side (eg = the journals) will stick 2e (if they don't even use 209:-) since they will = say there is no need for putting money or resources into updating their = classes and files; and if so even people who would like to go to a successor = find that they have nobody to exchange their files with or send them to to get = published and ... the problem why something like the linux model/takeover can't work with something like LaTeX is that you can't simply add or upgrade without = becoming incompatible with the rest of the world and that is a big need for = LaTeX. with linux itdoesn't matter that i run suse 6.2 (i think) on the box i'm writing from while my old laptop has perhaps even 5.x and you might have = 7.1 --- it only concerns the individual box and the need for a certain = driver for it and some goodies on the X etc. but the boxes can talk to each other = without any problems. not so with LaTeX. > Anyway, Frank, I just got your last mail in my inbox (need to read = the > details more carefully), and I think we agree that it's worth > exploring if there would be a substantial advantage for having some > engine with Unicode internal reprentation. it surely is, though i'm not convinced that the time has come, given = that the current LICR actually is as powerful (or more powerful in fact) than = unicode ever can be. > Anyway, I think that > Knuthian TeX should not be treated as a holy cow (if sound arguments i'm not treating it as such. but i want LaTeX to succeed. and = that means keeping a close eye on how the user base will react and how to = influence the reaction. > can be made), and a move to LaTeX3 which will by definition break the > "stability" of LaTeX may be a good point to make a move beyond TeX if > such a more is deemed eventually necessary. oh yes, but it would be far easier to do so if it comes with a lot of = "sexy" items that people will jump on (whether they need it or not) and that is = not easy to provide. and you need a critical mass frank ------_=_NextPart_001_01C09469.22A3A200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: LaTeX's internal char prepresentation (UTF8 or = Unicode?)

Marcel,

 >  > which is exactly what i mean: = you have to shout from the
 >  > outside. so if i get a file by = mail and process it i wouldn't know
 >  > what to do with it.
 >
 > If you didn't tell me anything, I would = run it with the (hopefully
 > some day to be default) input encoding = UTF8.  If your file was clean
 > ASCII, it would work in any case.  = Only if you had used some limited 8
 > bit encoding you would need to tell me = about the encoding explicitly.

my prediction is that for a good number of years to = come you have to live with
documents being in current type of 8bit encodings. = anyway, that's again the
input encoding part which I think is not that = interesting. right now I don't
think anything other than

 - default ascii (one day perhaps in fact default = utf8)
 - special input encoding used requires explicit = mentioning in the document,
   eg via some sort of inputenc = declaration

is suitable for the near future (and also in my = opinion) sufficient


 >  > the switch to 2e was a very = valuable and sad lession in this
 >  > respect.
 >
 > I am not sure what you are referring = to.  From my limited experience I
 > can see two problems with 2e:

my guess is your experience is related to Germany = which from the outset was 2e
positive for various reasons, one of it being a = strong base for NFSS1 and
International LaTeX.

i was referring to the fact that "nearly" 2e = died a death like say lollipop
(which is quite a nice format but never got used); ie = that people didn't even
install it and if you don't have the base then you = don't get new packages or
anything.

 > - Many users weren't using the new features = and running in
 >   compatibility mode.  This = may be sad, but it has nothing to do with
 >   the underlying engine, and = everything to do with changes (to the
 >   better) in the LaTeX user = interface.

that would have been an acceptable (though not nice) = start of acceptance, far
more problematical would have been people sticking = with 2.09 and refusing to
use it. it took a very long time for american (and = other) journals, say, to
accept 2e sources.

 >  > but more importantly and that is = my second point or the point i
 >  > tried to make: LaTeX should = "work" on TeX as a platform. so if i
 >  > would build the kernel in a way = that this is not possible then
 >  > people would not go with LaTeX = not for a long time.
 >
 > It is not for me to judge if TeX as an = engine is sufficient or
 > desirable, I don't know the real issues = well enough.

in many respects it is not but so far it is

 a) the most widely available one

 b) the most stable one (everywhere the = same)

 c) it doesn't have the problem of maintenance = (even if no bugs get fixed
    anymore)

 d) it doesn't have the problem of featurism, ie = it is stable and reliable
 most or even all of the successors of TeX have = been under strong development
 which is fine as such but LaTeX also requires a = strong compatibility between
 different sites and that is not provided if the = underlying program changes a
 lot. pdftex is a good example, in itself a = success it was of no much use to
 parse source files around using anything other = than the basic "don't output
 dvi output pdf" until recently where it = finally got more or less
 stable. problem with pdftex now is that it = lacks a suitable maintenance
 future given that Than might not be able to = support it much longer.


if you look at it from the point of available = successors:

 - etex is stable but the features are far too = internal to make a convincing
   argument for people to switch to a = version running only on that program
   we tried to get further features into = etex hoping to get a version which
   would allow to produce things really = selling but unfortunately that never
   got over a number of specification = sessions (see project web site articles
   again http:= //www.latex-project.org/papers/etex-meeting-notes.pdf )

 - pdftex has a (potential) maintenance problem = (and also lacks the features i
   would like to see in a successor of = TeX)

 - omega is or was up to now too unstable in its = features, ie far too much
   evolving to base LaTeX on it and also = lacks above features to some
   extend. i guess it will get stable now = (if not already being so), but it is
   a pity (though very understandable) that = it mainly tried to solve one part
   of the picture.


so if there is a new latex which replaces 2e then it = needs a basis fast or
else too many people will stick with 2e; then the = professional side (eg the
journals) will stick 2e (if they don't even use = 209:-) since they will say
there is no need for putting money or resources into = updating their classes
and files; and if so even people who would like to go = to a successor find that
they have nobody to exchange their files with or send = them to to get published
and ...

the problem why something like the linux = model/takeover can't work with
something like LaTeX is that you can't simply add or = upgrade without becoming
incompatible with the rest of the world and that is a = big need for LaTeX.

with linux itdoesn't matter that i run suse 6.2 (i = think) on the box i'm
writing from while my old laptop has perhaps even 5.x = and you might have 7.1
--- it only concerns the individual box and the need = for a certain driver for
it and some goodies on the X etc. but the boxes can = talk to each other without
any problems. not so with LaTeX.

 > Anyway, Frank, I just got your last mail in = my inbox (need to read the
 > details more carefully), and I think we = agree that it's worth
 > exploring if there would be a substantial = advantage for having some
 > engine with Unicode internal = reprentation.

it surely is, though i'm not convinced that the time = has come, given that the
current LICR actually is as powerful (or more = powerful in fact) than unicode
ever can be.

 > Anyway, I think that
 > Knuthian TeX should not be treated as a = holy cow (if sound arguments

i'm not treating it as such. but i want LaTeX = <whatever> to succeed. and that
means keeping a close eye on how the user base will = react and how to influence
the reaction.

 > can be made), and a move to LaTeX3 which = will by definition break the
 > "stability" of LaTeX may be a = good point to make a move beyond TeX if
 > such a more is deemed eventually = necessary.

oh yes, but it would be far easier to do so if it = comes with a lot of "sexy"
items that people will jump on (whether they need it = or not) and that is not
easy to provide. and you need a critical mass

frank

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