Received: from webgate.proteosys.de (mail.proteosys-ag.com [62.225.9.49]) by lucy.proteosys (8.11.0/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) with ESMTP id f19LpLH05885 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:51:21 +0100 Received: by webgate.proteosys.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f19LpLd19327 . for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:51:21 +0100 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailserver1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.30]) by mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f19LpK727457 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:51:20 +0100 (MET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C092E2.7041D280" Received: from mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.56]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18636 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:51:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (mail.listserv.gmd.de [192.88.97.5]) by mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f19LpJM14355 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:51:20 +0100 (MET) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (192.88.97.5) by mail.listserv.gmd.de (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <11.44871867@mail.listserv.gmd.de>; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:51:14 +0100 Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 489182 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:51:17 +0100 Received: from ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (mail.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.234]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29226 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:51:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29678 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:51:16 +0100 Received: from angel.algonet.se (angel.algonet.se [194.213.74.112]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id f19LpGu04714 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:51:16 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 11483 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2001 22:51:14 +0100 Received: from delenn.tninet.se (HELO algonet.se) (195.100.94.104) by angel.algonet.se with SMTP; 9 Feb 2001 22:51:14 +0100 Received: from [195.100.226.144] (du144-226.ppp.su-anst.tninet.se [195.100.226.144]) by delenn.tninet.se (BLUETAIL Mail Robustifier 2.2.1) with ESMTP id 635094.755473.981delenn-s0 for ; Fri, 09 Feb 2001 22:51:13 +0100 In-Reply-To: <14980.17576.549503.225471@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> References: Return-Path: X-Sender: haberg@pop.matematik.su.se Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: inputenc text (and/or math) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:50:15 +0100 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: From: "Hans Aberg" Sender: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" To: "Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L" Reply-To: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3789 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C092E2.7041D280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 20:27 +0100 2001/02/09, Frank Mittelbach wrote: >your opinion is that natural language doesn't contain digits; those who = have >argued believe you are mistaken. Just like `a' might be semantically a >variable belonging to a formula, even if the formula is just consisting = of >this variable, it might alternatively be the letter a or indeed the = word >a. Why do you accept the latter but claim that this can't be true for = digits? As you know, math formulas in the beginning were expressed solely using words. Only gradually, in fact rather late in history, one introduced symbols. If one carries out your argument, then there should be no math = environment. -- I merely carry out the logic of increased markup a bit further. As I = see there is no simple end to it -- one can continue the game as long as you please and have effort. >> (a) For people with GUI interface like Scientific Word, the software = has >> to deal with the ambiguity as best it can. > > and what I am saying is that they can't, really, deal with it. they = have to > provide a math markup and there is no way to identify something as = "this > should be math" automatically. so there is no real solution to the = problem > that people by mistake leave the needed markup out. If one leaves numbers out in a text mode, then those that want to use numbers will have to do some additional markup, be it "math" or "phone" = or whatever. -- Whenever there are some shortcomings of current markup, one = eventually will have to improve it, so that the stupid computers can get to know = the intentions of the human authors. Hans Aberg ------_=_NextPart_001_01C092E2.7041D280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: inputenc text (and/or math)

At 20:27 +0100 2001/02/09, Frank Mittelbach = wrote:
>your opinion is that natural language doesn't = contain digits; those who have
>argued believe you are mistaken. Just like `a' = might be semantically a
>variable belonging to a formula, even if the = formula is just consisting of
>this variable, it might alternatively be the = letter a or indeed the word
>a. Why do you accept the latter but claim that = this can't be true for digits?

As you know, math formulas in the beginning were = expressed solely using
words. Only gradually, in fact rather late in = history, one introduced
symbols.

If one carries out your argument, then there should be = no math environment.

-- I merely carry out the logic of increased markup a = bit further. As I see
there is no simple end to it -- one can continue the = game as long as you
please and have effort.

>> (a) For people with GUI interface like = Scientific Word, the software has
>> to deal with the ambiguity as best it = can.
>
> and what I am saying is that they can't, really, = deal with it. they have to
> provide a math markup and there is no way to = identify something as "this
> should be math" automatically. so there is = no real solution to the problem
> that people by mistake leave the needed markup = out.

If one leaves numbers out in a text mode, then those = that want to use
numbers will have to do some additional markup, be it = "math" or "phone" or
whatever.

-- Whenever there are some shortcomings of current = markup, one eventually
will have to improve it, so that the stupid computers = can get to know the
intentions of the human authors.

  Hans Aberg

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