Received: from webgate.proteosys.de (mail.proteosys-ag.com [62.225.9.49]) by lucy.proteosys (8.11.0/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) with ESMTP id f18AanH29868 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:36:49 +0100 Received: by webgate.proteosys.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f18Aafd12897 . for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:36:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailserver1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.30]) by mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f18AaeM11224 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:36:40 +0100 (MET) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C091BB.0AA6F680" Received: from mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.57]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26261 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:36:39 +0100 (MET) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (mail.listserv.gmd.de [192.88.97.5]) by mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f18Aad719445 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:36:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (192.88.97.5) by mail.listserv.gmd.de (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <5.D9E40383@mail.listserv.gmd.de>; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:36:33 +0100 Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 487907 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:36:35 +0100 Received: from ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (mail.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.234]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA15319 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:36:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA36626 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:36:34 +0100 Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f18AaXu14617 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:36:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from ujf-grenoble.fr (grenoble-44-13.dial.proxad.net [213.228.44.13]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AD051029A0; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:36:32 +0100 (CET) References: <14975.56331.365469.731085@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <14977.45841.640881.805735@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Return-Path: X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [fr] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: fr,en,es Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: default inputenc/fontenc tight to language Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:36:45 +0100 Message-ID: <3A8276BD.5F6B5071@ujf-grenoble.fr> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: From: "Thierry Bouche" Sender: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" To: "Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L" Reply-To: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3743 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C091BB.0AA6F680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Frank Mittelbach a =E9crit : > i know that, but that doesn't mean any of those groups and neither the = user > groups are necessarily qualified to decide a standard. moreover, there may be many groups for one language... > Sorry Thierry :-) Argh! -) Well, I know my approach is limited to languages doables with isolatin1\cap T1 and limited to some OS, so it is bad for portability (if someone gets a non-inputenc file I made and tries to transcode it to applemac, it may fail to compile once inputenc enters the game, either because I prefered to define a \fran=E7ais CS or because expansion of = some accented letters will fail somewhere) -- it would work with TCP, though... On the other hand, I made a book with nice interlettered small caps in the heading (using soul.sty), which works perfectly as long as latex doesn't expand =E9 to \'e before soul sees it, which happens with inputenc (maybe i could use soul in a better way, or of course create an letterspaced small caps font) -- I thought latex's internal representation was in T1, maybe most of these problems of single letters becoming 3 tokens could be handled by pseudo typesetting in T1 (^^e9) when writing to the aux file or in moving arguments (probably a stupid remark). > so in my opinion it there should be no default for input > encodings other than the one which is currently called "ascii" in = inputenc and > which makes any 8bit an error. if inputenc becomes mandatory, this is the only safe policy, I guess. > the main problem i see with defaults for output encodings is that for = languages > like French or German there isn't really a good default honestly, there is a good default and it's T1, you can't hyphenate & kern properly these languages with OT1 or even mltex's version of OT1. The only reasonnable alternative would be LY1 (8r seems to be deprecated...), and I don't see how a L encoding could be a default one. Here people confuse the default design/font format. T1 doesn't mean at all EC fonts in the MF version. It means that you use T1 metrics and that is required for french, e.g. If you want type 1 versions, you can use virtual fonts or buy EM, or use any real PS font. I've not used OT1 for french except in verbatim mode since the release of latex2e beta. Th. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C091BB.0AA6F680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: default inputenc/fontenc tight to language

Frank Mittelbach a =E9crit :

> i know that, but that doesn't mean any of those = groups and neither the user
> groups are necessarily qualified to decide a = standard.

moreover, there may be many groups for one = language...


>  Sorry Thierry :-)

Argh! -)

Well, I know my approach is limited to languages = doables with
isolatin1\cap T1 and limited to some OS, so it is bad = for portability
(if someone gets a non-inputenc file I made and tries = to transcode it to
applemac, it may fail to compile once inputenc enters = the game, either
because I prefered to define a \fran=E7ais CS or = because expansion of some
accented letters will fail somewhere) -- it would = work with TCP,
though... On the other hand, I made a book with nice = interlettered small
caps in the heading (using soul.sty), which works = perfectly as long as
latex doesn't expand =E9 to \'e before soul sees it, = which happens with
inputenc (maybe i could use soul in a better way, or = of course create an
letterspaced small caps font) -- I thought latex's = internal
representation was in T1, maybe most of these = problems of single letters
becoming 3 tokens could be handled by pseudo = typesetting in T1 (^^e9)
when writing to the aux file or in moving arguments = (probably a stupid
remark).

> so in my opinion it there should be no default = for input
> encodings other than the one which is currently = called "ascii" in inputenc and
> which makes any 8bit an error.


if inputenc becomes mandatory, this is the only safe = policy, I guess.


> the main problem i see with defaults for output = encodings is that for languages
> like French or German there isn't really a good = default

honestly, there is a good default and it's T1, you = can't hyphenate &
kern properly these languages with OT1 or even = mltex's version of OT1.
The only reasonnable alternative would be LY1 (8r = seems to be
deprecated...), and I don't see how a L encoding = could be a default one.
Here people confuse the default design/font format. = T1 doesn't mean at
all EC fonts in the MF version. It means that you use = T1 metrics and
that is required for french, e.g. If you want type 1 = versions, you can
use virtual fonts or buy EM, or use any real PS = font.

I've not used OT1 for french except in verbatim mode = since the release
of latex2e beta.

Th.

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