Received: from webgate.proteosys.de (mail.proteosys-ag.com [62.225.9.49]) by lucy.proteosys (8.11.0/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) with ESMTP id f160PfH04118 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:25:41 +0100 Received: by webgate.proteosys.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f160Ped02614 . for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:25:40 +0100 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailserver1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.30]) by mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f160PZ714952 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:25:35 +0100 (MET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C08FD3.55FEB080" Received: from mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.57]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA29489 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:25:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (mail.listserv.gmd.de [192.88.97.5]) by mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f160PY714948 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:25:34 +0100 (MET) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (192.88.97.5) by mail.listserv.gmd.de (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <5.274A36CC@mail.listserv.gmd.de>; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 1:25:29 +0100 Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 487413 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:25:30 +0100 Received: from ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (mail.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.234]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA21948 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:25:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA28734 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:25:29 +0100 Received: from sunshine.math.utah.edu (sunshine.math.utah.edu [128.110.198.2]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f160PSu03294 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:25:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from suncore.math.utah.edu (suncore0.math.utah.edu [128.110.198.5]) by sunshine.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19482; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 17:25:26 -0700 (MST) Received: (from beebe@localhost) by suncore.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA26769; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 17:25:25 -0700 (MST) Return-Path: x-url: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe x-fax: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 x-us-mail: "Center for Scientific Computing, Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC, University of Utah, 155 S 1400 E RM 233, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA" x-telephone: +1 801 581 5254 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: glyph collections viz font encodings Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:25:25 +0100 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" Sender: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" To: "Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L" Reply-To: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3709 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C08FD3.55FEB080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris Rowley writes on Mon, 5 Feb 2001 23:26:16 +0000: >> ... >> ... since the fonts available are going to get more and more >> diverse (if only very slowly) the robust medium-term solution for a >> TeX-like typesetting engine is to add the ability to bundle the >> font-metrics with the document (possibly virtually when network >> font warehouses really exist). >> ... To some extent, TeX already takes care of this, in that it records a font checksum in the DVI file that the DVI driver should match against the fonts used, and report any discrepancies. Of course, when they do mismatch, the average user has no idea what to do about it. Adobe Portable Document Format (PDF) takes this approach of saving metrics for all fonts used. I have an example here on my desk of a PostScript output from earlier today using a font in which the round-trip from PostScript to PDF to PostScript resulted in a substitution of Adobe Sans MM in place of the original, Impact (a Microsoft TrueType poster font). This is both good and bad: the substitution happens silently, so the user is neither informed of it, or bothered by it. However, the two PostScript files definitely look different when printed; even their page dimensions changed. PDF was trying to ensure that if font substitutions occurred, the character spacing should be close to the original, even if the glyph appearance is changed. Some people find this objectionable: the U.S. National Science Foundation, for example, REQUIRES that PDF files for grant proposals contain embedded subsetted fonts to ensure uniform appearance everywhere. The notion of network font warehouses is, I suspect, far off, given the copyright and licensing issues on the vast majority of fonts. While Adobe has officially taken the position that their licensed fonts, if subsetted, can be legally embedded in distributed PDF and PostScript documents without further license fee payments, other vendors are not so accommodating: Bitstream's license makes even the font metrics in the .afm files confidential, e.g. >> Comment Copyright 1987-1992 as an unpublished work by Bitstream Inc., = Cambridge, MA. >> Comment All rights reserved >> Comment Confidential and proprietary to Bitstream Inc. It is not clear what this means for PDF; a lawyer might conceivably argue that a Bitstream font cannot be legally used in a PDF file at all, because that constitutes copying of the font metrics. Whether this is a good business decision is another question :^). Thus, this brings us round to the alternative offered by PostScript to PDF conversion software, like Adobe Acrobat Distiller, and ghostscript ps2pdf, of forcing the embedding of all fonts used. The feature was undoubtedly added because customers wanted it, which suggests that if a descendant of TeX were to consider this issue, it ought to carefully examine the PDF experience. In closing, I note that the PDF-1.0 specification defined 14 base fonts (1993 edition of Portable Document Format Reference Manual, p. 64) which all PDF viewers are required to provide, so that they never need to be embedded. The PDF-1.3 specification (2000 second edition of same) no longer even has the notion of `base fonts'. Perhaps this is in recognition of a problem that has been discussed before on the tex-fonts list, that various flavors of the PDF Times serif base font from different vendors have not only had somewhat different glyph offerings, but also different metrics. Or perhaps it is because with 20K+ fonts on the market (see http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/fonts/fonts-to-vendors.html for a catalog), why should 14 of them be singled out for special treatment as `base fonts'. As more (La)TeX users learn how to expand their font choices beyond (Extended) Computer Modern, our community has to face the font availability problem too. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 = - - Center for Scientific Computing FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 = 4148 - - University of Utah Internet e-mail: = beebe@math.utah.edu - - Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC beebe@acm.org = beebe@computer.org - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@ieee.org = - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: = http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ ------_=_NextPart_001_01C08FD3.55FEB080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: glyph collections viz font encodings

Chris Rowley <C.A.Rowley@OPEN.AC.UK> writes on = Mon, 5 Feb 2001 23:26:16
+0000:

>> ...
>> ... since the fonts available are going to = get more and more
>> diverse (if only very slowly) the robust = medium-term solution for a
>> TeX-like typesetting engine is to add the = ability to bundle the
>> font-metrics with the document (possibly = virtually when network
>> font warehouses really exist).
>> ...

To some extent, TeX already takes care of this, in = that it records a
font checksum in the DVI file that the DVI driver = should match against
the fonts used, and report any discrepancies.  = Of course, when they do
mismatch, the average user has no idea what to do = about it.

Adobe Portable Document Format (PDF) takes this = approach of saving
metrics for all fonts used.  I have an example = here on my desk of a
PostScript output from earlier today using a font in = which the
round-trip from PostScript to PDF to PostScript = resulted in a
substitution of Adobe Sans MM in place of the = original, Impact (a
Microsoft TrueType poster font).  This is both = good and bad: the
substitution happens silently, so the user is neither = informed of it,
or bothered by it.  However, the two PostScript = files definitely look
different when printed; even their page dimensions = changed.

PDF was trying to ensure that if font substitutions = occurred, the
character spacing should be close to the original, = even if the glyph
appearance is changed.  Some people find this = objectionable: the
U.S. National Science Foundation, for example, = REQUIRES that PDF files
for grant proposals contain embedded subsetted fonts = to ensure uniform
appearance everywhere.

The notion of network font warehouses is, I suspect, = far off, given
the copyright and licensing issues on the vast = majority of fonts.

While Adobe has officially taken the position that = their licensed
fonts, if subsetted, can be legally embedded in = distributed PDF and
PostScript documents without further license fee = payments, other
vendors are not so accommodating: Bitstream's license = makes even the
font metrics in the .afm files confidential, = e.g.

>> Comment Copyright 1987-1992 as an unpublished = work by Bitstream Inc., Cambridge, MA.
>> Comment All rights reserved
>> Comment Confidential and proprietary to = Bitstream Inc.

It is not clear what this means for PDF; a lawyer = might conceivably
argue that a Bitstream font cannot be legally used in = a PDF file at
all, because that constitutes copying of the font = metrics.  Whether
this is a good business decision is another question = :^).

Thus, this brings us round to the alternative offered = by PostScript to
PDF conversion software, like Adobe Acrobat = Distiller, and ghostscript
ps2pdf, of forcing the embedding of all fonts = used.  The feature was
undoubtedly added because customers wanted it, which = suggests that if
a descendant of TeX were to consider this issue, it = ought to carefully
examine the PDF experience.

In closing, I note that the PDF-1.0 specification = defined 14 base
fonts (1993 edition of Portable Document Format = Reference Manual,
p. 64) which all PDF viewers are required to provide, = so that they
never need to be embedded.  The PDF-1.3 = specification (2000 second
edition of same) no longer even has the notion of = `base fonts'.

Perhaps this is in recognition of a problem that has = been discussed
before on the tex-fonts list, that various flavors of = the PDF Times
serif base font from different vendors have not only = had somewhat
different glyph offerings, but also different = metrics.

Or perhaps it is because with 20K+ fonts on the market = (see

        http= ://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/fonts/fonts-to-vendors.html

for a catalog), why should 14 of them be singled out = for special
treatment as `base fonts'.

As more (La)TeX users learn how to expand their font = choices beyond
(Extended) Computer Modern, our community has to face = the font
availability problem too.


----------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------
- Nelson H. F. = Beebe           &n= bsp;        Tel: +1 801 581 = 5254           &nb= sp;      -
- Center for Scientific = Computing       FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 = 801 581 4148 -
- University of = Utah           &nb= sp;        Internet e-mail: = beebe@math.utah.edu  -
- Department of Mathematics, 322 = INSCC      beebe@acm.org  = beebe@computer.org -
- 155 S 1400 E RM = 233           &nbs= p;           = beebe@ieee.org          = ;          -
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, = USA    URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe<= /A>  -
----------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------

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