Received: from webgate.proteosys.de (mail.proteosys-ag.com [62.225.9.49]) by lucy.proteosys (8.11.0/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) with ESMTP id f05DQkp30092 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:26:46 +0100 Received: by webgate.proteosys.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f05DQu725635 . for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:26:56 +0100 Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailserver1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.30]) by mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f05DQfM10029 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:26:41 +0100 (MET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0771B.267E2F00" Received: from mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.57]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA26072 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:26:40 +0100 (MET) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (mail.listserv.gmd.de [192.88.97.5]) by mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f05DQe020867 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:26:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (192.88.97.5) by mail.listserv.gmd.de (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.FB474EE9@mail.listserv.gmd.de>; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:26:39 +0100 Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 478123 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:26:36 +0100 Received: from ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (mail.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.234]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA03984 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:26:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA18628 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:26:35 +0100 Received: from zambeze.ujf-grenoble.fr (zambeze.ujf-grenoble.fr [152.77.2.3]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f05DQUU12105 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:26:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from mozart.ujf-grenoble.Fr (mozart.ujf-grenoble.fr [193.54.241.5]) by zambeze.ujf-grenoble.fr (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3/Configured by AD & JE 25/10/1999) with ESMTP id OAA24866 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:26:15 +0100 (MET) Received: (from bouche@localhost) by mozart.ujf-grenoble.Fr (8.9.3/8.8.5) id OAA02251; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:26:12 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: References: Return-Path: X-Mailer: VM 6.22 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: templates for page layout Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:26:12 +0100 Message-ID: <200101051326.OAA02251@mozart.ujf-grenoble.Fr> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: From: "Thierry Bouche" Sender: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" To: "Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L" Reply-To: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3640 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0771B.267E2F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =BB The reason you should determine the text width first is that the = width of a =BB line is very important for how easy a text is to read: if the line = is too =BB long then it is hard to find the beginning of the next line. but designers don't (necessarily) work that way: you usually have the constraint of the paper format (or choose one in the first place), then choose the text width/height and adjust type size/leading to achieve nice text blocks. You can't say like in current standard classes `i want that font size/leading on that paper' and get a line length/textheight computed, because you'd adjust the leading depending on the line length, and the line length (together with type size) depending on the margins... =BB For many of =BB the common paper formats (e.g. A4) it is more often this than the =BB \paperwidth that is the bound you need to consider. it is more or less impossible to achieve a nice layout on iso paper anyway... =BB The text height and width are the side lengths of the text = rectangle, in =BB which all the non-marginal text should appear. In traditional book = design, =BB the size and position of this rectangle is one of the very first = things you =BB determine. yes, and find a font/leading that fits afterwards... =BB That's the way the current output routine does it, yes, but it is = not the =BB way it should be done. E.g. a headings pagestyle page head is = visually part =BB of the text rectangle they're not! in fact it depends: when you have a rule under the heading, very close to the body of the text, you consider the heading as part of the text block, but usually, you don't. If you have folios at the bottom of the page, they're definitely out of the text block. I think Tschishold says something about that, but maybe I remember it wrong. =BB Another thing which should be included in =BB \textheight is the (expected) depth of the page box; I doubt anyone = would =BB want to claim that the descenders on the last line of a page are = outside I would. I mean that what designers choose (often with a cryptic combination of oblique lines) is the rectangle that will apear grey in a typical page: its top is a x-height (or cap-height) over the first base-line, its bottom is the last baseline. In TeX, topskips have to be quite large when you use accented caps e.g., but the real visual text blocks starts somewhat lower. Thierry Bouche __ =AB Ils vivent pour vivre, et nous, h=E9las=A0! nous vivons pour = savoir. =BB Charles Baudelaire, Paris. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0771B.267E2F00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: templates for page layout

=BB The reason you should determine the text width = first is that the width of a
=BB line is very important for how easy a text is to = read: if the line is too
=BB long then it is hard to find the beginning of the = next line.

but designers don't (necessarily) work that way: you = usually have the
constraint of the paper format (or choose one in the = first place),
then choose the text width/height and adjust type = size/leading to
achieve nice text blocks. You can't say like in = current standard
classes `i want that font size/leading on that paper' = and get a line
length/textheight computed, because you'd adjust the = leading depending
on the line length, and the line length (together = with type size)
depending on the margins...

=BB For many of
=BB the common paper formats (e.g. A4) it is more = often this than the
=BB \paperwidth that is the bound you need to = consider.

it is more or less impossible to achieve a nice layout = on iso paper
anyway...

=BB The text height and width are the side lengths of = the text rectangle, in
=BB which all the non-marginal text should appear. In = traditional book design,
=BB the size and position of this rectangle is one of = the very first things you
=BB determine.

yes, and find a font/leading that fits = afterwards...

=BB That's the way the current output routine does it, = yes, but it is not the
=BB way it should be done. E.g. a headings pagestyle = page head is visually part
=BB of the text rectangle

they're not! in fact it depends: when you have a rule = under the
heading, very close to the body of the text, you = consider the heading
as part of the text block, but usually, you don't. If = you have folios
at the bottom of the page, they're definitely out of = the text block. I
think Tschishold says something about that, but maybe = I remember it
wrong.

=BB Another thing which should be included in
=BB \textheight is the (expected) depth of the page = box; I doubt anyone would
=BB want to claim that the descenders on the last = line of a page are outside

I would. I mean that what designers choose (often with = a cryptic
combination of oblique lines) is the rectangle that = will apear grey in
a typical page: its top is a x-height (or cap-height) = over the first
base-line, its bottom is the last baseline. In TeX, = topskips
have to be quite large when you use accented caps = e.g., but the real
visual text blocks starts somewhat lower.

Thierry Bouche
__
  =AB Ils vivent pour vivre, et nous, = h=E9las=A0! nous vivons pour savoir. =BB
          &nbs= p;            = ;         Charles Baudelaire, = Paris.

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