Received: via tmail-4.1(11) (invoked by user schoepf) for schoepf; Fri, 19 May 2000 14:09:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.57]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA20819 for ; Fri, 19 May 2000 14:09:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (mail.listserv.gmd.de [192.88.97.5]) by mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e4JC9aK10470 for ; Fri, 19 May 2000 14:09:36 +0200 (MET DST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFC18B.19F89680" Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (192.88.97.5) by mail.listserv.gmd.de (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <8.53415628@mail.listserv.gmd.de>; Fri, 19 May 2000 14:09:35 +0200 Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 456713 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Fri, 19 May 2000 14:09:18 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (mail.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.234]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA06777 for ; Fri, 19 May 2000 14:08:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA30838 for ; Fri, 19 May 2000 14:08:52 +0200 Received: from mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.57]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07883 for ; Fri, 19 May 2000 14:08:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailserver1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.30]) by mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e4JC8oK10381 for ; Fri, 19 May 2000 14:08:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (dialin340.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.175.40]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA20624 for ; Fri, 19 May 2000 14:08:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from latex3@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) id MAA01255; Fri, 19 May 2000 12:53:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: <200003120208.DAA02407@kammer.uni-hannover.de> References: <200003081323.NAA23620@nag.co.uk> <200003120208.DAA02407@kammer.uni-hannover.de> Return-Path: X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under Emacs 20.4.1 x-vm-v5-data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]["1725" "Fri" "19" "May" "2000" "12:53:00" "+0200" "Frank Mittelbach" "frank.mittelbach@LATEX-PROJECT.ORG" nil "42" "tracing the OR" "^Date:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil]nil) X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: latex3 set sender to frank.mittelbach@latex-project.org using -f Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: tracing the OR Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:53:00 +0100 Message-ID: <14629.7436.963881.535201@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: From: "Frank Mittelbach" Sender: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" To: "Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L" Reply-To: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3581 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFC18B.19F89680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reinhard Kotucha writes: > >>>>> "David" =3D=3D David Carlisle writes: > > >> usually 10% to 60% of \textheight. > > > ie too large to go in top, too small to make a float page on > > their own, ideal material for taking to the end of the = document, > > given the default latex parameter settings! > > It certainly would help a little bit if the output routine would be > more verbose. FMi now worked on the output routine and told us at = the > DANTE meeting that the float placing algorithm works much better than > people think. > > But in fact it is a black box. It is hard to find out why a float is > not placed. It doesn't provide any information *why* a float is > deferred, and which variable I have to change. it is hard to find out in current LaTeX that is true. the new algorithm = goes a long way in trying to be more friendly in this respect. but it is equally hard to provide the right amount of information. right new the new algorithm explains for each float area tried why it = failed or succeeded, e.g. Float: \bx@B {figure} {1.2} {This is a figure caption for (1)} area trial: t31 -> failed: span count t31 /=3D 1 area trial: t21 -> failed: span count t21 /=3D 1 area trial: t22 -> failed: span count t22 /=3D 1 area trial: t23 -> failed: span count t23 /=3D 1 area trial: t11 -> failed: area closed for type figure area trial: b11 -> failed: area closed for type figure area trial: t12 -> accepted that may or may not be sufficient --- one has to see. > BTW., writing such information to the log file could encourage people > to read log files. I hope. I'm not sure they do. i'm not sure that this should go to the log all the time. frank ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFC18B.19F89680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable tracing the OR

Reinhard Kotucha writes:
 > >>>>> "David" = =3D=3D David Carlisle <davidc@NAG.CO.UK> writes:
 >
 >     >> usually = 10% to 60% of \textheight.
 >
 >     > ie too large = to go in top, too small to make a float page on
 >     > their own, = ideal material for taking to the end of the document,
 >     > given the = default latex parameter settings!
 >
 > It certainly would help a little bit if = the output routine would be
 > more verbose.  FMi now worked on the = output routine and told us at the
 > DANTE meeting that the float placing = algorithm works much better than
 > people think.
 >
 > But in fact it is a black box.  It is = hard to find out why a float is
 > not placed.  It doesn't provide any = information *why* a float is
 > deferred, and which variable I have to = change.

it is hard to find out in current LaTeX that is true. = the new algorithm goes a
long way in trying to be more friendly in this = respect.

but it is equally hard to provide the right amount of = information.
right new the new algorithm explains for each float = area tried why it failed
or succeeded, e.g.

Float: \bx@B   {figure}  = {1.2}   {This is a figure caption for (1)}
 area trial: t31  -> failed: span count = t31 /=3D 1
 area trial: t21  -> failed: span count = t21 /=3D 1
 area trial: t22  -> failed: span count = t22 /=3D 1
 area trial: t23  -> failed: span count = t23 /=3D 1
 area trial: t11  -> failed: area closed = for type figure
 area trial: b11  -> failed: area closed = for type figure
 area trial: t12  -> accepted

that may or may not be sufficient --- one has to = see.

 > BTW., writing such information to the log = file could encourage people
 > to read log files.  I hope.  I'm = not sure they do.

i'm not sure that this should go to the log all the = time.

frank

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