Received: via tmail-4.1(11) (invoked by user schoepf) for schoepf; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 14:04:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.57]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA16372 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 14:04:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (mail.listserv.gmd.de [192.88.97.5]) by mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21535 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 14:04:34 +0100 (MET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BF88FE.DA960A00" Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (192.88.97.5) by mail.listserv.gmd.de (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <5.830002B8@mail.listserv.gmd.de>; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 14:03:15 +0100 Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 452215 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:58:40 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (mail.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.234]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA26947 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:58:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA54524 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 14:01:18 +0100 Received: from csc-sun.math.utah.edu (csc-sun.math.utah.edu [128.110.198.2]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA15371 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:58:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from suncore.math.utah.edu (suncore0.math.utah.edu [128.110.198.5]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA05067; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 06:01:14 -0700 (MST) Received: (from beebe@localhost) by suncore.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA13339; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 06:01:13 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:49:54 +0100 Return-Path: x-vm-v5-data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]["2718" "Wed" "8" "March" "2000" "06:01:13" "-0700" "Nelson H. F. Beebe" "beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU" nil "55" "Re: float position rules" "^Date:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil]nil) x-url: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe x-fax: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 x-us-mail: "Center for Scientific Computing, Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC, University of Utah, 155 S 1400 E RM 233, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA" x-telephone: +1 801 581 5254 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: float position rules Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 14:01:13 +0100 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" Sender: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" To: "Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L" Reply-To: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3563 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF88FE.DA960A00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [This comment does not offer any answers to Chris Rowley's request for float-placement algorithms, but it does document some extensive user experience.] I deal with many users in a Mathematics Department. They (and I) write technical reports, journal articles, book chapters, books, and theses. The biggest complaint that I get about float placement is the difficulty in making the float appear near the point of reference. It is not uncommon to see floats move all the way to the end of the section or chapter. The ! (exclamation) option in LaTeX-2e helped this, but didn't completely solve the problem. What users expect is something like an exponentially weighted placement algorithm: if the float moves n pages ahead, then it should do so with probability x^{-n}, where x is about 100. The floats I'm concerned about are not ones with funny parshapes, or cutouts with text flowing around them: they are simple rectangles of width \textwith, and variable height, usually 10% to 60% of \textheight. Our University of Utah Thesis Office makes life even harder in demanding that floats follow these rules (recorded in our thesis LaTeX style file): % Figures may appear physically after a reference at the bottom of % the same page or the top of the next page. Figures deferred to the % next page must all appear at once, producing a page of floats if = necessary. % % To avoid a single figure centered on a float page the [t] option can = be % applied to the last figure in a list. These are braindead and stupid rules, but we have been unable to get the people responsible replaced with new personnel who known something about typography. Thus, the t placement option, defined on p. 197 of the LaTeX User's Guide and Reference Manual, second edition, as t \emph{Top}: at the top of a text page doesn't satisfy this requirement, because it could (sensibly) place the float on the current page, before the reference to it. While the p option avoids the placement problem, it is only useful if the floats are large enough to force a new page almost immediately. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 = - - Center for Scientific Computing FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 = 4148 - - University of Utah Internet e-mail: = beebe@math.utah.edu - - Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC beebe@acm.org = beebe@computer.org - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@ieee.org = - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: = http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF88FE.DA960A00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: float position rules

[This comment does not offer any answers to Chris = Rowley's request for
float-placement algorithms, but it does document some = extensive user
experience.]

I deal with many users in a Mathematics = Department.  They (and I)
write technical reports, journal articles, book = chapters, books, and
theses.  The biggest complaint that I get about = float placement is the
difficulty in making the float appear near the point = of reference.  It
is not uncommon to see floats move all the way to the = end of the
section or chapter.  The ! (exclamation) option = in LaTeX-2e helped
this, but didn't completely solve the problem.

What users expect is something like an exponentially = weighted
placement algorithm: if the float moves n pages = ahead, then it
should do so with probability x^{-n}, where x is = about 100.

The floats I'm concerned about are not ones with funny = parshapes, or
cutouts with text flowing around them: they are = simple rectangles of
width \textwith, and variable height, usually 10% to = 60% of \textheight.

Our University of Utah Thesis Office makes life even = harder in
demanding that floats follow these rules (recorded in = our thesis LaTeX
style file):

% Figures may appear physically after a reference at = the bottom of
% the same page or the top of the next page. Figures = deferred to the
% next page must all appear at once, producing a page = of floats if necessary.
%
% To avoid a single figure centered on a float page = the [t] option can be
% applied to the last figure in a list.

These are braindead and stupid rules, but we have been = unable to get
the people responsible replaced with new personnel = who known something
about typography.

Thus, the t placement option, defined on p. 197 of the = LaTeX User's
Guide and Reference Manual, second edition, as

    t   \emph{Top}: at the = top of a text page

doesn't satisfy this requirement, because it could = (sensibly) place
the float on the current page, before the reference = to it.

While the p option avoids the placement problem, it is = only useful if
the floats are large enough to force a new page = almost immediately.

----------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------
- Nelson H. F. = Beebe           &n= bsp;        Tel: +1 801 581 = 5254           &nb= sp;      -
- Center for Scientific = Computing       FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 = 801 581 4148 -
- University of = Utah           &nb= sp;        Internet e-mail: = beebe@math.utah.edu  -
- Department of Mathematics, 322 = INSCC      beebe@acm.org  = beebe@computer.org -
- 155 S 1400 E RM = 233           &nbs= p;           = beebe@ieee.org          = ;          -
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, = USA    URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe<= /A>  -
----------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------

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