Received: via tmail-4.1(11) (invoked by user schoepf) for schoepf; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 22:26:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.57]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA22160 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 22:26:05 +0100 (MET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (mail.listserv.gmd.de [192.88.97.5]) by mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA10586 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 22:26:04 +0100 (MET) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BF6E8D.47942B00" Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (192.88.97.5) by mail.listserv.gmd.de (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <10.F119AB5A@mail.listserv.gmd.de>; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 22:24:47 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 449555 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 22:24:30 +0100 Received: from ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (mail.urz.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.119.234]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA14844 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 22:24:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA51462 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 22:24:27 +0100 Received: from daffodil.csv.warwick.ac.uk (daffodil.csv.warwick.ac.uk [137.205.192.30]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA27584 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 22:24:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (mapdn@mimosa [137.205.192.34]) by daffodil.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA23919 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 21:25:58 GMT Received: (from mapdn@localhost) by mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA08785 for LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 21:25:53 GMT In-Reply-To: <200002022203.XAA00444@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de>; from frank.mittelbach@LATEX-PROJECT.ORG on Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 11:03:13PM +0100 References: <001101bf6a7a$145173e0$0bda79c3@ergst> <200001302100.WAA00837@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> <004101bf6cef$ff642540$64d979c3@ergst> <20000202135912.A29886@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> <200002022203.XAA00444@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Return-Path: X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i x-vm-v5-data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]["1949" "Thu" "3" "February" "2000" "21:25:52" "+0000" "James Kilfiger" "mapdn@CSV.WARWICK.AC.UK" nil "45" "Re: Comments on templates and xinitials" "^Date:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil]nil) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: Comments on templates and xinitials Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 22:25:52 +0100 Message-ID: <20000203212552.A3872@mimosa.csv.warwick.ac.uk> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: From: "James Kilfiger" Sender: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" To: "Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L" Reply-To: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3537 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF6E8D.47942B00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 11:03:13PM +0100, Frank Mittelbach wrote: > James, > sorry to disappoint you but I would like to answer both suggestions = with no. > here are the arguments: > > > FMI: > > > > It kind of feels wrong to me to open up that name space just to > > > > be able to support \"A as an instance name --- but convince me > > > > otherwise :-) > > > > No but it should support =C4. > > it should not. template names are abstract names of the language and I > like the language portable and this means 7bit visible ascii plus a > few extra chars, just like label names. I'm not at all in favour of > supporting inputenc 8 bit in such places. At the moment, as I understand it, you can use anything which you could use in a \csname. This means that if you are not inputenc, or you are using T1 font encoding, you can use `=C4', as it either is, or expands = to ^^c4. If portability is desired, and surely it is, `=C4' should either always work, or always not. I would prefer it to work. By the way, I'm not suggesting that the standard templates written by the latex3 project should use 8-bit characters, just that the template mechanism should not rule them out (of if it does, it rules them out completely) > > Many such problems should go away if a font encoding such as T1 or > > LY1 is used. Perhaps T1 should be made the norm for latex2e*? > > now the NO is the following: NO 2e* will not do that switch. 2e* (and > this is why it is called 2e*) will be a package based extension of 2e. > in other words it will run completely on a 2e kernel . I understand this, what I mean is that ldsetup.sty could select a fontencoding. I can see some problems with this, but nothing terrible. If it is in your mind to change this eventually I think this adds strength to my case. > open to discuss those points but note that I will vanish for a few > days to work on output routines and front matter. Super! Good luck. James ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF6E8D.47942B00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Comments on templates and xinitials

On Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 11:03:13PM +0100, Frank = Mittelbach wrote:
> James,
> sorry to disappoint you but I would like to = answer both suggestions with no.
> here are the arguments:
>  > > FMI:
>  > > > It kind of feels wrong to = me to open up that name space just to
>  > > > be able to support \"A = as an instance name --- but convince me
>  > > > otherwise :-)
>  >
>  > No but it should support =C4.
>
> it should not. template names are abstract names = of the language and I
> like the language portable and this means 7bit = visible ascii plus a
> few extra chars, just like label names. I'm not = at all in favour of
> supporting inputenc 8 bit in such places.

At the moment, as I understand it, you can use = anything which you could
use in a \csname.  This means that if you are = not inputenc, or you are
using T1 font encoding, you can use `=C4', as it = either is, or expands to
^^c4.  If portability is desired, and surely it = is,  `=C4' should either
always work, or always not.

I would prefer it to work.  By the way, I'm not = suggesting that the
standard templates written by the latex3 project = should use 8-bit
characters, just that the template mechanism should = not rule them out
(of if it does, it rules them out completely)

>  > Many such problems should go away if a = font encoding such as T1 or
>  > LY1 is used. Perhaps T1 should be = made the norm for latex2e*?
>
> now the NO is the following: NO 2e* will not do = that switch. 2e* (and
> this is why it is called 2e*) will be a package = based extension of 2e.
> in other words it will run completely on a 2e = kernel .

I understand this, what I mean is that ldsetup.sty = could select a
fontencoding.  I can see some problems with = this, but nothing terrible.
If it is in your mind to change this eventually I = think this adds
strength to my case.

> open to discuss those points but note that I will = vanish for a few
> days to work on output routines and front = matter.

Super! Good luck.
        = James

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