Received: via tmail-4.1(11) (invoked by user schoepf) for schoepf; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:17:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.56]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA05991 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:17:23 +0100 (MET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BF6CF1.5940CB80" Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (mail.listserv.gmd.de [192.88.97.5]) by mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA19378 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:17:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (192.88.97.5) by mail.listserv.gmd.de (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <2.25A0D6BD@mail.listserv.gmd.de>; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:17:02 +0100 Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 449780 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:15:44 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA20331 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:15:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from smtp1.hetnet.nl (smtp1.hetnet.nl [145.7.225.1]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29729 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:15:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from hetnet.nl ([194.151.104.155]) by smtp1.hetnet.nl with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.327.32); Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:14:42 +0100 Received: from ergst ([195.121.222.206]) by hetnet.nl with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.327.32); Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:06:32 +0100 References: <001101bf6a7a$145173e0$0bda79c3@ergst> <200001302100.WAA00837@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Return-Path: X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 x-vm-v5-data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]["3211" "Tue" "1" "February" "2000" "21:06:45" "+0100" "Ruben Prins" "sunu@HETNET.NL" nil "82" "Re: Comments on templates and xinitials" "^Date:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil]nil) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: Comments on templates and xinitials Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:06:45 +0100 Message-ID: <004101bf6cef$ff642540$64d979c3@ergst> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: From: "Ruben Prins" Sender: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" To: "Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L" Reply-To: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3532 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF6CF1.5940CB80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > 1) You should use `totalheight', not `height' --- just try Palatino = J, or > > just about any Q. (BTW, this mistake is also made by the dropping package). > > i beg to disagree. point is that for certain letters \height may not = be right > but in my opinion \totalheight would be worse. In most circumstances alinging > the baseline of the initial with a bseline of the text is a good = starting > point (even if the initial has decenders) --- and if it is not = adequate the > template offers ample possibilities to adjust the placement. Maybe a simple switch: if true, then use totalheight, otherwise, use = height and ignore depth (most of the time initials with descenders will overlap = the text, and only horizontal/vertical adjustment will solve this). If further/no adjustments are wanted, one could always manually adjust the initial template (IMO, your argument backfires ;-). This probably = handles more cases correctly. Just look at \DeclareInstance{initial}{default}{std}{ initial-font =3D \fontfamily{ppl}\fontsize{40}{40}\selectfont, parshape-list =3D {0pt,0pt}, text-sep =3D 2pt, initial-format =3D \fbox{#1} % extra illustration of my argument } ... \selectlanguage{dutch} \Initial{IJ}[muiden.] Onzegbaar verdriet, koningin, vraagt u mij te vernieuwen, hoe Troje's macht, dat beklagenswaardige rijk, verwoest is door Grieken, de ellende die ik zelf heb gezien en waarin ik een groot aandeel gehad heb. Wie kan bij zulke verhalen, Myrmidoon of Doloop of soldaat van de harde Ulixes, zijn tranen bedwingen? There's no justification for this result. Yuck! Adjustments of the = template should be used to beautify the result, not to correct a (preventable) = wrong result (that's my opinion). > > 2) Accented characters can be used for initial if you just use > > \meaning/\@onelevel@sanitize or a plain \string (compare the code = the > > accents use to check for existing `template instances' = [=3Dcomposites]). > > True, but then either \DeclareInstance would need to do the same or = the whole > thing would not work either. And I'm not that keen on allowing = anything in > template/instance names but would rather prefer a lean name space = there. > > It kind of feels wrong to me to open up that name space just to be = able to > support \"A as an instance name --- but convince me otherwise :-) > Well, maybe a special interface for the initials is at place here: \DeclareInitial{\"A}[std]{...} Which will execute \DeclareInstance{initial}{\string\"A}{std}{...} And \Initial will use \UseInstance{initial}{\string#1}. This hides the template mechanism somewhat, but most cases are served: \Initial{\"U}[ber den sieben Bergen] ... \Initial{\TH}[orn], but my knowledge of Icelandic isn't what it used to be... \Initial{\DJ} (Croatian) \Initial{\'E}[colle], whatever And it doesn't require any change to the template mechanism (nor does it create a "Missing \endcsname inserted" message). Guess what? I'm = stubborn and don't take "no" for an answer ;-) Ruben Prins (who would currently like to have an accented initial himself). PS I'm ignoring inputenc, so \DeclareInitial{\'E} and \DeclareInitial{=C9} = won't be the same -- call it a feature ;-) ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF6CF1.5940CB80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Comments on templates and xinitials

>  > 1) You should use `totalheight', not = `height' --- just try Palatino J,
or
>  > just about any Q. (BTW, this mistake = is also made by the dropping
package).
>
> i beg to disagree. point is that for certain = letters \height may not be
right
> but in my opinion \totalheight would be worse. = In most circumstances
alinging
> the baseline of the initial with a bseline of = the text is a good starting
> point (even if the initial has decenders) --- = and if it is not adequate
the
> template offers ample possibilities to adjust = the placement.

Maybe a simple switch: if true, then use totalheight, = otherwise, use height
and ignore depth (most of the time initials with = descenders will overlap the
text, and only horizontal/vertical adjustment will = solve this). If
further/no adjustments are wanted, one could always = manually adjust the
initial template (IMO, your argument backfires ;-). = This probably handles
more cases correctly. Just look at

  \DeclareInstance{initial}{default}{std}{
    initial-font    =3D = \fontfamily{ppl}\fontsize{40}{40}\selectfont,
    parshape-list   =3D = {0pt,0pt},
    text-sep =3D 2pt,
    initial-format  =3D \fbox{#1} = % extra illustration of my argument
   }
  ...
  \selectlanguage{dutch}
  \Initial{IJ}[muiden.]
  Onzegbaar verdriet, koningin, vraagt u mij te = vernieuwen,
  hoe Troje's macht, dat beklagenswaardige = rijk,
  verwoest is door Grieken, de ellende die ik = zelf
  heb gezien en waarin ik een groot aandeel = gehad heb.
  Wie kan bij zulke verhalen, Myrmidoon of = Doloop
  of soldaat van de harde Ulixes, zijn tranen = bedwingen?

There's no justification for this result. Yuck! = Adjustments of the template
should be used to beautify the result, not to correct = a (preventable) wrong
result (that's my opinion).

>  > 2) Accented characters can be used for = initial if you just use
>  > \meaning/\@onelevel@sanitize or a = plain \string (compare the code the
>  > accents use to check for existing = `template instances'  [=3Dcomposites]).
>
> True, but then either \DeclareInstance would = need to do the same or the
whole
> thing would not work either. And I'm not that = keen on allowing anything in
> template/instance names but would rather prefer = a lean name space there.
>
> It kind of feels wrong to me to open up that = name space just to be able to
> support \"A as an instance name --- but = convince me otherwise :-)
>

Well, maybe a special interface for the initials is at = place here:

  \DeclareInitial{\"A}[std]{...}

Which will execute

  = \DeclareInstance{initial}{\string\"A}{std}{...}

And \Initial will use = \UseInstance{initial}{\string#1}. This hides the
template mechanism somewhat, but most cases are = served:

  \Initial{\"U}[ber den sieben Bergen] = ...
  \Initial{\TH}[orn], but my knowledge of = Icelandic isn't what it
    used to be...
  \Initial{\DJ} (Croatian)
  \Initial{\'E}[colle], whatever

And it doesn't require any change to the template = mechanism (nor does it
create a "Missing \endcsname inserted" = message). Guess what? I'm stubborn
and don't take "no" for an answer = ;-)

Ruben Prins
(who would currently like to have an accented initial = himself).

PS
I'm ignoring inputenc, so \DeclareInitial{\'E} and = \DeclareInitial{=C9} won't
be the same -- call it a feature ;-)

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