Received: via tmail-4.1(11) (invoked by user schoepf) for schoepf; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 06:57:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.57]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA06226 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 06:57:50 +0100 (MET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (mail.listserv.gmd.de [192.88.97.5]) by mailgate2.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA29063 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 06:57:46 +0100 (MET) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BF6BB0.1AEFC300" Received: from mail.listserv.gmd.de (192.88.97.5) by mail.listserv.gmd.de (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <3.E81A84EB@mail.listserv.gmd.de>; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 6:57:31 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE by RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 448618 for LATEX-L@RELAY.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 06:56:14 +0100 Received: from relay.uni-heidelberg.de (relay.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.100.212]) by relay.urz.uni-heidelberg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA10190 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 06:56:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.56]) by relay.uni-heidelberg.de (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA10685 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 06:56:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (mailserver1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.30]) by mailgate1.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA00516 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 06:57:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (root@dialin16.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.174.16]) by mail.Uni-Mainz.DE (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA06216 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 06:57:40 +0100 (MET) Received: (from design@localhost) by istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA00837; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:00:51 +0100 In-Reply-To: <001101bf6a7a$145173e0$0bda79c3@ergst> References: <001101bf6a7a$145173e0$0bda79c3@ergst> Return-Path: x-vm-v5-data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]["2793" "Sun" "30" "January" "2000" "22:00:51" "+0100" "Frank Mittelbach" "frank.mittelbach@LATEX-PROJECT.ORG" nil "63" "Re: Comments on templates and xinitials" "^Date:" nil nil "1" nil "Comments on templates and xinitials" nil nil nil]nil) X-Authentication-Warning: istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de: design set sender to design@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de using -f Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: Comments on templates and xinitials Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:00:51 +0100 Message-ID: <200001302100.WAA00837@istrati.zdv.uni-mainz.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: From: "Frank Mittelbach" Sender: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" To: "Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L" Reply-To: "Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3527 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF6BB0.1AEFC300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ruben, > Well, I'm new to this list, so my comments on templates might already = have > been discussed, but anyway, here goes no they haven't been (at least not on the list); while writing = template.dtx David and I had some discussions on the topics you raised but we decided = to defer them (and any potential interface for it) until after we got some = more real templates/instances available. To get a feeling for what is needed = in practice. will only deal with the (in my opinion) easier part of your message = tonight: > * xinitials > > 1) You should use `totalheight', not `height' --- just try Palatino = J, or > just about any Q. (BTW, this mistake is also made by the dropping = package). i beg to disagree. point is that for certain letters \height may not be = right but in my opinion \totalheight would be worse. In most circumstances = alinging the baseline of the initial with a bseline of the text is a good = starting point (even if the initial has decenders) --- and if it is not adequate = the template offers ample possibilities to adjust the placement. > 2) Accented characters can be used for initial if you just use > \meaning/\@onelevel@sanitize or a plain \string (compare the code the > accents use to check for existing `template instances' = [=3Dcomposites]). True, but then either \DeclareInstance would need to do the same or the = whole thing would not work either. And I'm not that keen on allowing anything = in template/instance names but would rather prefer a lean name space there. It kind of feels wrong to me to open up that name space just to be able = to support \"A as an instance name --- but convince me otherwise :-) > Neither English nor Dutch use accented initials/caps, but languages = like > German, Danish, Swedish, French, Portuguese, etc. do (well, I think = so ;-) > So I think support SHOULD be part of a standard template. Don't force = people > to constantly work around such idiosyncracies when salvation is so = nigh! I agree with your argument, I just don't see a good = implementation/interface yet (though this might come one day) > Maybe another hint could be to add a feature to the accent commands = of > \DeclareTextAccent/\DeclareTextCommand, that they can revert to = unaccented > behaviour under certain circumstances, i.e., > \"a -> \@firstofone a (thus practically a mere `a') > There could be several uses for this behaviour (initials being one of > them). an interesting thought. but i think that \"A producing just A is not a = good idea in case of initials. Im sure an initial \"A would need a completely different treatment to \textogonek{A} and both would return A in your = scheme. > Well, that's all for my input today; as for more positive comments: I = think > those should be obvious. thanks for them good night frank ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF6BB0.1AEFC300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Comments on templates and xinitials

Hi Ruben,

 > Well, I'm new to this list, so my comments = on templates might already have
 > been discussed, but anyway, here = goes

no they haven't been (at least not on the list); while = writing template.dtx
David and I had some discussions on the topics you = raised but we decided to
defer them (and any potential interface for it) until = after we got some more
real templates/instances available. To get a feeling = for what is needed in
practice.

will only deal with the (in my opinion) easier part of = your message tonight:

 > * xinitials
 >
 > 1) You should use `totalheight', not = `height' --- just try Palatino J, or
 > just about any Q. (BTW, this mistake is = also made by the dropping package).

i beg to disagree. point is that for certain letters = \height may not be right
but in my opinion \totalheight would be worse. In = most circumstances alinging
the baseline of the initial with a bseline of the = text is a good starting
point (even if the initial has decenders) --- and if = it is not adequate the
template offers ample possibilities to adjust the = placement.


 > 2) Accented characters can be used for = initial if you just use
 > \meaning/\@onelevel@sanitize or a plain = \string (compare the code the
 > accents use to check for existing = `template instances'  [=3Dcomposites]).

True, but then either \DeclareInstance would need to = do the same or the whole
thing would not work either. And I'm not that keen on = allowing anything in
template/instance names but would rather prefer a = lean name space there.

It kind of feels wrong to me to open up that name = space just to be able to
support \"A as an instance name --- but convince = me otherwise :-)

 > Neither English nor Dutch use accented = initials/caps, but languages like
 > German, Danish, Swedish, French, = Portuguese, etc. do (well, I think so ;-)
 > So I think support SHOULD be part of a = standard template. Don't force people
 > to constantly work around such = idiosyncracies when salvation is so nigh!

I agree with your argument, I just don't see a good = implementation/interface
yet (though this might come one day)

 > Maybe another hint could be to add a = feature to the accent commands of
 > \DeclareTextAccent/\DeclareTextCommand, = that they can revert to unaccented
 > behaviour under certain circumstances, = i.e.,
 >     \"a -> = \@firstofone a  (thus practically a mere `a')
 > There could be several uses for this = behaviour (initials being one of
 > them).

an interesting thought. but i think that \"A = producing just A is not a good
idea in case of initials. Im sure an initial \"A = would need a completely
different treatment to \textogonek{A} and both would = return A in your scheme.

 > Well, that's all for my input today; as for = more positive comments: I think
 > those should be obvious.

thanks for them

good night
frank

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