X400-Received:  by mta d400relay in /PRMD=dfnrelay/ADMD=d400/C=de/; Relayed;
                Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:10:24 +0100
X400-Received:  by mta venus in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/; Relayed; Mon, 21 Dec
                1998 17:07:18 +0100
X400-Received:  by mta fell.open.ac.uk in /PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/; Relayed;
                Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:07:04 +0100
X400-Received:  by mta open.ac.uk in /PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/; Relayed; Mon, 21
                Dec 1998 17:07:01 +0100
X400-Received:  by mta UK.AC.MHS-RELAY.SUN2 in /PRMD=uk.ac/ADMD= /C=gb/;
                Relayed; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:07:48 +0100
X400-Originator:  C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk
X400-Recipients:  non-disclosure:;
X400-MTS-Identifier:  [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD=
                      /C=GB/;<13950.28971.492393.890205@fell.]
X400-Content-Type:  P2-1988 (22)
Content-Identifier:  Re: portable ...
Alternate-Recipient:  Allowed
References:  <v03110702b29ab433e75a@[130.237.37.82]>,
             <199812092035.VAA16014@na6.mathematik.uni-tuebingen.de>,
             <199812201444.IAA03397@dcdrjh.fnal.gov>
MIME-Version:  1.0
Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding:  quoted-printable
Message-ID:  <13950.28971.492393.890205@fell.open.ac.uk>
Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project
              <LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE>
In-Reply-To:  <4.1.19981220114255.00a3d5e0@pop.tiac.net>
Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:07:48 +0100
From: Chris Rowley <C.A.Rowley@OPEN.AC.UK>
Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project
              <LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE>
To: Multiple recipients of list LATEX-L
              <LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE>
Subject:      Re: portable LaTeX
Status: R

Y&Y, Inc. wrote --

> Just as we had then to struggle with buggy PS clone interpreters

I recall having to purchase non-Adobe interpreters becuase of memory
leaks etc in the Adobe version ... but perhaps that predates your memor=
ies?


chris
=20
so we
> now have a bit of a struggle working around bugs in PDF Readers -
> including unfortunately the ones from Adobe.  But it can be done.
>=20
> >The only reliable ``fix'' for Adobe PDF is to convert
> >it to an Adobe PostScript language file and, if necessary (which it
> >frequently is), forcefully by manual editting dumb it down to langua=
ge
> >level 1.  Nothing else works reliably.
>=20
> Really?  Before we had PDF we had endless threads on how useless PS i=
s
> because so many clone PS interpreters fail...
>=20
> >PDF fails more frequently than
> >anything else---most printers fail if given a PDF directly.
>=20
> Of course, why would you feed PDF to a printer? (OK, lets ignore PS 3=
).
> And I find printing from HTML browsers completely unreliable, while
> printing from Acrobat Reader works with properly prepared PDF.
>=20
> >As far as I can tell the _only_ reason for PDF is to protect Adobe's=
 fonts for Adobe.
>=20
> What?  How does it do that?  It is almost as easy to steal fonts from=
 PDF than from PDF.
> PDF is an output format that removes the
> programmatic aspects of PS (which lead to problems with clone PS inte=
rpreters)
> the result is smaller and easier to interrpret (does not require a fu=
ll PS interpreter).
>=20
> >Ghostview does not handle PDF files as input in any version that I a=
m
> >aware of.
>=20
> While I never us it, I understand recent versions do.
>=20
> >PDF files are frequently encrypted which causes problems by
> >cryptography being illegal to export from several countries as milit=
ary
> >munitions and illegal to import into others without special permissi=
ons
> >(e.g. France, Russia and the Peoples' Reuplic of China).
>=20
> What?  The compression schemes are described in detail so you
> can undo them.  You can password protect the files, but with a low gr=
ade
> scheme that any government has the resources to break.  I have never
> heard of such complaints.  (Some unethical types on the net
> supply code to break PDF encryption - or provide an online service
> to do it for you - so you can print and alter PDF files that the auth=
or
> did not want you to print, alter or plagerize).
>=20
> >time.  And, there are quite a few printers still in active use which=

> >are only Adobe PostScript language level 1.  These printers are not
> >going to be withdrawn from service just to make it convenient for yo=
u,
> >Adobe or any one else.
>=20
> We are talking about PDF here, and while you can certainly generate P=
DF from
> PS level II code, that does not mean you need a PS level II printer t=
o print it - at all!
> The Acrobat Reader can print to anything that has a working printer d=
river.
>=20
> >I _am quite willing to accept_ a stage of conversion from TeX DVI to=

> >Adobe PostScript language files.  Until there are converters as
> >competent as dvips and dvipsk are for converting DVI to Adobe PostSc=
ript
> >language files for converting Adobe PDF to Adobe PostScript level 1
> >language files, I have no interest in a LaTeX that produces Adobe PD=
F
> >instead of DVI.
>=20
> This is a separate issue.  It is in fact not clear that TeX -> PDF is=
 now or
> will be a viable alternative to TeX -> DVI.  But none of the issues y=
ou
> or Hans have raised show anything but your lack of knowledge about Ac=
robat -
> not anything to do with why PDF may or may not be a good target langu=
age.
>=20
> >|Maybe tune in to comp.text.pdf?
>=20
> >        There does not seem to be much there:
>=20
> Fix your news reader or news server than.  Although, it is definitely=
 not as
> swamped with the volume of comp.text.tex  No long flame wars :-)
>=20
> >|Maybe read http://www.YandY.com/download/pdf_from.pdf
>=20
> >        If you want this to be read, then put it up as an
> >        Adobe PostScript level 1 language file so that it
> >        generally can be read.
>=20
> Absolutely not.  PS is a poor distribution format.  And if you are in=
terested
> in Acrobat PDF, the least you can do is install the free Acrobat Read=
er.
>=20
> >        Furthermore, to demonstrate the quality of that file:
>=20
> ># xpdf pdf_from.pdf
> >xpdf version 0.7a
> >Copyright =A9 1996-1998 Derek B. Noonburg
> >Error (0): PDF file is damaged - attempting to reconstruct xref tabl=
e...
> >Error: Top-level pages object is wrong type (null)
> >Error: Couldn't read page catalog
> ># pdf2ps pdf_from.pdf pdf_from.ps
> >Error: /invalidaccess in --fileposition--
>=20
> (1) Transfer the file in binary more, not ASCII!
> (2) Get a decent PDF reader.
>=20
> >|Maybe check out Donald Story's `AcroTeX' web page:
> >|http://www.math.uakron.edu/~dpstory/
>=20
> >        I tried it.  I fail to see how it helps.  I did see that it =
also
> >        has the same problems with respect to Adobe PDF that many WW=
W sites
> >        have with respect to html---you have to have ``bleeding'' ed=
ge
> >        software in order to use the material.  Which is without
> >        consideration of the users' needs, wants, wishes or capaciti=
es.
>=20
> >        For example, general use WWW pages should be written to be u=
sable
> >        by Lynx and Mosaic web browsers.  If nothing else, then prov=
ide
> >        a text only button and a separate set of pages.  If not, the=
n,
> >        for example, provide alt=3D tags for images.
>=20
> I'll have to ask Donald to rewrite his web site in plain ASCII (or EB=
CDIC?)
>=20
> Regards, Berthold.
>=20
>=20
> Y&Y, Inc.  http://www.YandY.com/news.htm  mailto:support@YandY.com
>=20