X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5738" "Tue" "9" "November" "93" "23:29:45" "+0100" "Frank Mittelbach" "MITTELBACH@MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE" nil "136" "Re: Administrator's nightmare" "^Date:" nil nil "11"]) Return-Path: Received: from sc.ZIB-Berlin.DE (mailserv) by dagobert.ZIB-Berlin.DE (4.1/SMI-4.0/24.6.93) id AA09914; Tue, 9 Nov 93 23:53:10 +0100 Received: from vm.urz.Uni-Heidelberg.de (vm.hd-net.uni-heidelberg.de) by sc.ZIB-Berlin.DE (4.1/SMI-4.0-sc/03.06.93) id AA12114; Tue, 9 Nov 93 23:53:07 +0100 Message-Id: <9311092253.AA12114@sc.ZIB-Berlin.DE> Received: from DHDURZ1 by vm.urz.Uni-Heidelberg.de (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4295; Tue, 09 Nov 93 23:51:46 CET Received: from DHDURZ1 by DHDURZ1 (Mailer R2.08 R208004) with BSMTP id 3837; Tue, 09 Nov 93 23:51:33 CET Received: from DHDURZ1 by DHDURZ1 (Mailer R2.08 R208004) with BSMTP id 3834; Tue, 09 Nov 93 23:51:30 CET Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Date: Tue, 9 Nov 93 23:29:45 +0100 From: Frank Mittelbach Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: Multiple Recipients of Subject: Re: Administrator's nightmare Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1140 Subj: Administrator's nightmare Richard said: > But the issue for me is: how can I provide the functionality > of 2.09 for those who don't want to move, and 2e for those > that are willing? (And then there's the problem that if I > provide both, no one will move to 2e.) the first question to ask here is: What did you tell your user when you updated from LaTeX 209 to LaTeX 209 ? I know that one can't just change releases even minor ones and keep a fallback but if you are upgrating your OS on a larger machine you normally can't run both versions in parallel (unless its MVS :-). With something like LaTeX you can over a period of time but i doubt that you have several "pure" LaTeX209 running for a longer period, have you? One information that doesn't seem to have got proper attention, I think, is that LaTeX2e IS NOT ANOTHER FLAVOR OF THE MANY FLAVORS OF LaTeX it is the release update issued by Leslie Lamport and The LaTeX3 Project team, to put an end to various formats a site maintainer has to provide to be able to process ``so called LaTeX document''. In that and in others it is something like a 209 release. But in addition to this it comes with a number of *additional* (notice the word it is not different) features, like defining commands with optional arguments and a number of other often asked extensions. One consequence of this is: There will be no maintenance for a LaTeX209 system when the first official release of LaTeX2e is out (not the beta test this year). LaTeX209 will be removed from. Thus if somebody sending me mail about a problem in a 209 version I'm likely to say please upgrade and check if it happens still. Another consequence is: All of our style files will make use of the new features and thus updates will not any longer run with obsolete LaTeX versions. As i said in a previous mail styles for 209 will (with a very few exceptions) run without modifications with 2e. however, since the extended option concept in 2e will certainly attract the attension of style writers, for example you can have options on packages like \usepackage[verbose]{multicol} it is quite likely that many styles will soon use these things too. So compatibility is a one-way street (but i said this before) This does not affect the user interface (except \documentstyle \documentclass/usepackage). The functionality of latex209 will be there in 2e (yes, you will have ${\it abc}$ in 2e, something you do not have in the NFSS2 beta test out at the moment) and if you have a document starting with \documentstyle it will probably even remove some of the functionality to provide as much compatibility as you can hope for. For example in 2e \sloppy will use \emergencystretch but with \documentstyle it will revert to the old bad line breaking to make you happy. I'm sure there will be some bugs in the new system where we overlooked something or implemented something not quite right :-). However, i also hope that we get such starting problems solved fast. So yes, for the beta test time you will need both formats but spring next year you should only need one. > There are files e.g. amsart.sty that are different for > 2.09 and 2.09+NFSS2 (and 2e). they will be removed as well. the ams has already updated the files for nfss2 (or is nearly finished with it). this is another reason why, something like an nf prefix is probably no longer a good idea. when latex2e is out there should be only one times.sty (except the one for plain, but this is like changing cars, as explained in the LaTeX book) > As an aside, in the light of the completely different > structure of NFSS2, I am extremely relieved that I did > not force NFSS1 on my users. I made it available (for > AmS-LaTeX) but I kept it basically a secret. it is not completely different. NFSS2 runs on NFSS1 documents (not styles) without problems (it only warns about obsolete math alphabet definitions), but as i said in a previous mail the encoding attribute was badly necessary and that would have changed the syntax already. thus the step to provide something much better (and I'm quite pleased with the interface by now, if i may say so, even the one for math is useable :-) by learning from the nfss1 lessons > PS When will we see `The LaTeX companion'? everything is through the second step of professional proof-reading, except one chapter and one appendix (copy-editing only there), and of course, changing nf... into ... means that i have to redo two chapters (if unlucky redoing the page breaking, you don't think this is something you can leave to TeX, do you?) you can guess for yourself. AW will need 4-5 weeks for printing and distribution so if we are fast and this list doesn't come with too many new ideas we make it for christmas. The cover is already printed. So i better return to ch11 now good night frank ps: to answer Paul's remark about the difference between options and packages: 2e supports this concept: options are in the optional argument and packages are in \usepackage. More, when it is ready, or it will never be ready pps: i got about 100 votes back (still hoping for another 100) so i will not say now what the current result is. But: one result was interesting. i had about 10% mistakes, ie people sending the vote in the mail body and not the subject (thus i couldn't move votes by subject search into folders) or not sending the requested words. And most of them quite famous people that didn't read the mail carefully :-) So please if you haven't send your vote. do it now but send it in the subject line containing the words "poll" followed by a colon and a ^^^^^^^^^^^^ space ": " followed by either "keep", "scratch", or "do not care". thanks