Received: by nummer-3.proteosys id <01C19443.91301074@nummer-3.proteosys>; Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:44:06 +0100 Return-Path: <@vm.gmd.de:LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.BITNET> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C19443.91301074" x-vm-v5-data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil][nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Ending the tyranny of magsteps! Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1992 07:20:00 +0100 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: From: "Don Hosek" Sender: "LaTeX-L Mailing list" To: "Rainer M. Schoepf" Reply-To: "LaTeX-L Mailing list" Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 493 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C19443.91301074 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Frank Mittelbach = -This is to an older message, my modem line was done ... -> [me] I say let's end the tyranny of magsteps. Nobody outside the TeX -> world uses them... 17.28pt, REALLY! Let's have our standard -> series of sizes match that used in the real typographical world: -> {5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,14,18,20,24,28,30,36} (The list is from -> memory from quite some time ago, but I believe its accurate). -I wouldn't mind doing so, I agree that this would help very much as -bitmap fonts not directly produced for TeX tend:-) to come not in -17.26pt. So let's think a bit about what we would gain and where the -problems are. -First of all, who uses the current set of font? That's something I -wonder for quite some time but would like to her facts. I know that -some commercial installations (and also emtex, for example, if one -makes fonts for it without much knowledge about TeX internals, i.e., -using mfjob all) will fill up the hard disk by generating every font -even 5pt ones in every magstep known. The result is a huge number of -fonts from that about 85% are never used. So the questions: -1) Which fonts are actually in standard use? In a previous message I indicated that a rather small set of fonts was more than adequate. -2) If we provide a typographical standard set of fontsizes does this -increase the storage or reduce it if we at the same time make a go to -reduce all the unnecessary magstep versions? It'll reduce it, I'd say. Just getting rid of unnecessary magstep versions will cut down the amount of disk space. -3) Having a second set font magnified to 1.2 does make sense, when we -want to increase the resolution by optically reducing the output from -TeX. It is not correct to use 12pt option! How many magnifications are -necessary for this purpose? One or two? (Most certainly not seven) Beats me. I generate fonts on the fly as I need them. [And a bit of renegade dialogue that really should've been adressed in a separate message] -> Something nice would be the ability to set up scaling ratios -> based on x-height so that, say Times and Helvetica can be mixed -> with little thought. -This would in principle possible with the new version although I -suppose a bit complicated. Therefore the question, how important would -this be? I mean for a particular job, (e.g. a book) one can set up a -short fontdef file with something like - <10>timr at9.3pt.... -General scaling according to the x-height would slow down loading but -could be made faster if really desired. On the one hand it is, as you indicated simple enough to make the adjustment on a per-job basis. On the other hand, people seldom do. [and now back to the topic at hand] From: Dominik Wujastyk -About magsteps, Frank says -\begin{quotation} - > First of all, who uses the current set of font? That's something I - > wonder for quite some time but would like to her facts. I know that - > some commercial installations (and also emtex, for example, if one - > makes fonts for it without much knowledge about TeX internals, i.e., - > using mfjob all) will fill up the hard disk by generating every font - > even 5pt ones in every magstep known. The result is a huge number of - > fonts from that about 85% are never used. -\end{quotation} -Yes, "mfjob all" will make all the fonts at all the sizes, but -surely the very point of mfjob is to make it easy to make only -the fonts you need. That's why it is easy to specify names and -magsteps, etc. Furthermore, dvi translators such as dvips and -the latest beta versions of the emtex drivers will actually -call metafont to create any fonts whose bitmaps are not found -when the DVI is examined. I have been meaning for some time now -to start with a tabula rasa of bitmaps, and see what fonts actually -get generated, on a need-to-use basis. Has anyone else already -done this? Obviously the fonts used by different people will vary, -and only a statistical answer about frequency of use is possible. Well, here's what I've gotten from a blank slate generation over a month of use. This is a less-than-representative state of the union, but gives some idea at least of what sort of distribution occurs with typical LaTeX use: Directory of c:\lib\tex\fonts\pk\wblaser.300\dpi300\*.* circle10.pk 4340 1-04-92 21:55 cmbx8.pk 4612 1-04-92 22:18 cmbx9.pk 5080 1-04-92 22:53 cmbx10.pk 5448 12-12-91 15:18 cmbx12.pk 6404 1-04-92 22:04 cmcsc10.pk 5660 12-08-91 0:53 cmex9.pk 6432 1-04-92 22:49 cmex10.pk 6948 1-04-92 22:57 cmmi5.pk 3684 1-04-92 23:01 cmmi6.pk 4312 1-04-92 23:01 cmmi7.pk 4828 12-17-91 23:29 cmmi8.pk 5340 1-04-92 22:57 cmmi9.pk 5844 1-04-92 22:57 cmmi10.pk 6532 12-17-91 23:31 cmr5.pk 3324 12-19-91 23:13 cmr6.pk 3680 1-04-92 22:19 cmr7.pk 4156 12-08-91 0:52 cmr8.pk 4524 12-08-91 0:54 cmr9.pk 4828 12-17-91 23:19 cmr10.pk 5384 12-12-91 15:18 cmr12.pk 6328 1-04-92 22:05 cmr17.pk 8980 1-04-92 22:19 cmsl9.pk 5532 1-04-92 22:41 cmsl10.pk 6176 1-04-92 22:42 cmss10.pk 4652 1-04-92 22:39 cmsy6.pk 4448 1-04-92 22:50 cmsy7.pk 4892 12-17-91 23:26 cmsy8.pk 5404 12-15-91 19:24 cmsy9.pk 5972 1-04-92 22:13 cmsy10.pk 6528 12-12-91 15:06 cmtex10.pk 4564 1-04-92 23:00 cmti8.pk 5308 1-04-92 22:20 cmti9.pk 5848 1-04-92 22:51 cmti10.pk 6528 12-17-91 23:23 cmtt8.pk 3704 12-15-91 19:26 cmtt9.pk 4008 12-15-91 19:26 cmtt10.pk 4436 12-15-91 19:24 cmtt12.pk 5204 1-04-92 22:40 cmu10.pk 5764 1-04-92 22:51 graylj.pk 1720 12-20-91 0:07 lasy10.pk 852 1-04-92 22:52 line10.pk 3768 1-04-92 21:56 logo8.pk 344 12-20-91 0:07 212,320 bytes in 45 file(s) 319,488 bytes allocated Directory of c:\lib\tex\fonts\pk\wblaser.300\dpi518\*.* cmbx12.pk 11632 1-04-92 21:46 cmcsc10.pk 9832 12-12-91 11:08 21,464 bytes in 4 file(s) 24,576 bytes allocated Directory of c:\lib\tex\fonts\pk\wblaser.300\dpi186\*.* kanjiaa.pk 3220 12-12-91 15:26 kanjiac.pk 5200 12-12-91 15:38 kanjiad.pk 4612 12-12-91 15:41 13,032 bytes in 5 file(s) 20,480 bytes allocated Directory of c:\lib\tex\fonts\pk\wblaser.300\dpi360\*.* cmbx12.pk 7632 1-04-92 21:47 cmcsc10.pk 6736 1-04-92 22:03 cmr12.pk 7624 1-04-92 21:47 cmr17.pk 10968 1-04-92 21:48 cmsy10.pk 7792 12-15-91 19:24 cmtt12.pk 6068 1-04-92 22:38 46,820 bytes in 8 file(s) 53,248 bytes allocated Directory of c:\lib\tex\fonts\pk\wblaser.300\dpi1080\*.* qtmr10.pk 6812 12-22-91 0:15 6,812 bytes in 3 file(s) 8,192 bytes allocated Directory of c:\lib\tex\fonts\pk\wblaser.300\dpi622\*.* cmcsc10.pk 11920 1-04-92 22:05 cmr7.pk 7992 12-17-91 23:23 19,912 bytes in 4 file(s) 20,480 bytes allocated Directory of c:\lib\tex\fonts\pk\wblaser.300\dpi432\*.* cmcsc10.pk 8084 1-04-92 21:44 cmtt10.pk 6128 12-17-91 23:21 14,212 bytes in 4 file(s) 16,384 bytes allocated Directory of c:\lib\tex\fonts\pk\wblaser.300\dpi150\*.* cmcsc10.pk 3112 1-04-92 21:42 3,112 bytes in 3 file(s) 4,096 bytes allocated Directory of c:\lib\tex\fonts\pk\wblaser.300\dpi214\*.* cmti7.pk 3468 1-04-92 22:03 3,468 bytes in 3 file(s) 4,096 bytes allocated Directory of c:\lib\tex\fonts\pk\wblaser.300\dpi240\*.* cmcsc10.pk 4664 1-04-92 22:18 4,664 bytes in 3 file(s) 8,192 bytes allocated Directory of c:\lib\tex\fonts\pk\wblaser.300\dpi270\*.* cmcsc10.pk 5096 1-04-92 22:37 5,096 bytes in 3 file(s) 8,192 bytes allocated Directory of c:\lib\tex\fonts\pk\wblaser.300\dpi420\*.* qtmr10.pk 2264 1-05-92 19:13 2,264 bytes in 3 file(s) 4,096 bytes allocated Total for: c:\lib\tex\fonts\pk\wblaser.300\*.* 353,176 bytes in 106 file(s) 491,520 bytes allocated Do note that the vast majority of official QDT documents are typeset in Palation with occasional qtmr10 in the logo and occasional headlines. In response to someone else, I'll include the listing of fonts in the Beckman TeX distribution. -\begin{quotation} - > So the questions: - > 1) Which fonts are actually in standard use? - > 2) If we provide a typographical standard set of fontsizes does this - > increase the storage or reduce it if we at the same time make a go = to - > reduce all the unnecessary magstep versions? - > 3) Having a second set font magnified to 1.2 does make sense, when = we - > want to increase the resolution by optically reducing the output = from - > TeX. It is not correct to use 12pt option! How many magnifications = are - > necessary for this purpose? One or two? (Most certainly not seven) -\end{quotation} -This all sounds very reasonable to me. A proper set of design sizes, -together with perhaps one or two magsteps. From: Sebastian Rahtz -Dominik Wujastyk writes: - > magsteps, etc. Furthermore, dvi translators such as dvips and - > the latest beta versions of the emtex drivers will actually - > call metafont to create any fonts whose bitmaps are not found - > when the DVI is examined. I have been meaning for some time now - > to start with a tabula rasa of bitmaps, and see what fonts actually - > get generated, on a need-to-use basis. Has anyone else already -I did this last week when I got a beta-test dvidrv which could do the -work, and its working well. I deleted about 15Mb of fonts, and have so -far only created about 1Mb, and that includes some silly things I -needed to test the NFSS2. Like I've been saying, generate-as-you-go is the best way to fly. BTW, is it possible to intercept the calls to MF and do other things with them? Not all PK files are MF output after all (I have, among other things, PTI fontware and SFTOPK on my system). -Mind you, all this stuff about CMR fonts is all dead end. Surely the -politically corrtect future is rasterizing being done by the printer, -as PS does (even if Ps is not perfect)? I dont think LaTeX3Project -should waste its precious resources sorting out issues which are -fundamental TeX problems. Regardless of political correctness, the majority of printers in use do not support on-board rasterizing and the majority of drivers for those printers support little more than PK-format fonts (ignoring in hopes that they'll go away GF- and PXL-reading drivers). That plus the fact that cm is everywhere means that we had better deal with it even if it is dead end. - > I don't know that size is really an issue with 40M drives - > generally a minimum in the personal computing world and the fact - > that a well-chosen set of fonts can fit in less than 2M of disk - > space ("well-chosen" means every font mentioned in - > lfonts.new+every font chosen in plain.tex plus every plain TeX - > font _not_ preloaded at magsteps 0, 0.5 and 1-5). -but there is no standard set of fonts for lfonts.new! there are -various suggestions by Frank and Rainer, but I dont think they claim -these are `official', do they? I really cannot see how you manage with -this 2Mb, by the way. It may not be official, but how many system managers, let alone _users_ muck with lfonts.anything? Remember, _we're_ oddball cases. As regards the 2M question, a complete listing of fonts in the package follows (apologies for lack of arrangement, I'm just giving an LHARC listing): From: bbeeton -a couple of questions, to incite comments. -what effect might changing from a magstep to a "true-size" approach -have on the compatibility between sites using mainly plain-based -styles and those using mainly latex? Slightly more than the requirement of lasy* circle and line, slightly less than the requirement of PostScript. -would practices diverge, resulting in even more incompatibility and -lack of mutual understanding than there is now? I'd hope not. In fact, one would expect that plain users might start using these fonts as well. At present, I still frequently come across abominations like cmr7 scaled\magstep5 in plain TeX files... it's a striking visual affect but so is printing everything in University Roman. -do most of the people reading this discussion believe that everything -can be done with latex, to the exclusion of writing job-specific -macros even for certain specialized tasks? if so, then does the -non-latex use of tex matter, i.e., does this group, do other tex -users care? LaTeX is really only meant for structured documents. About half of my database publishing is done through LaTeX half through plain depending on what needs to be done. I would never try making my bottle label printing system part of LaTeX, there's no reason for it. On the other hand, the accompanying MSDS information sheets are best done with LaTeX. I've even on occasion been seen typing things in WordImperfect but only in a crunch. -p.s. in the past, i have done a couple of things in latex, by specific -request to prove a point, for which leslie lamport advised me *not* to -use latex. i can cite chapter and verse if requested, but don't wish -to pre-bias your thoughts. I can believe it. I've on occasion mis-used LaTeX myself (the most recent case being a flyer which I did in LaTeX picture mode since that seemed the most direct case. It was far from the article its document style claimed it was). -dh ------_=_NextPart_001_01C19443.91301074 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ending the tyranny of magsteps!

From: Frank Mittelbach = <MITTELBACH%MZDMZA.ZDV.UNI-MAINZ.DE@uga.cc.uga.edu>
-This is to an older message, my modem line was done = ...

-> [me] I say let's end the tyranny of magsteps. = Nobody outside the TeX
-> world uses them... 17.28pt, REALLY! Let's have = our standard
-> series of sizes match that used in the real = typographical world:
-> {5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,14,18,20,24,28,30,36} (The = list is from
-> memory from quite some time ago, but I believe = its accurate).

-I wouldn't mind doing so, I agree that this would = help very much as
-bitmap fonts not directly produced for TeX tend:-) = to come not in
-17.26pt. So let's think a bit about what we would = gain and where the
-problems are.

-First of all, who uses the current set of font? = That's something I
-wonder for quite some time but would like to her = facts. I know that
-some commercial installations (and also emtex, for = example, if one
-makes fonts for it without much knowledge about TeX = internals, i.e.,
-using mfjob all) will fill up the hard disk by = generating every font
-even 5pt ones in every magstep known. The result is = a huge number of
-fonts from that about 85% are never used. So the = questions:

-1) Which fonts are actually in standard use?

In a previous message I indicated that a rather small = set of
fonts was more than adequate.

-2) If we provide a typographical standard set of = fontsizes does this
-increase the storage or reduce it if we at the same = time make a go to
-reduce all the unnecessary magstep versions?

It'll reduce it, I'd say. Just getting rid of = unnecessary magstep
versions will cut down the amount of disk = space.

-3) Having a second set font magnified to 1.2 does = make sense, when we
-want to increase the resolution by optically = reducing the output from
-TeX. It is not correct to use 12pt option! How many = magnifications are
-necessary for this purpose? One or two? (Most = certainly not seven)

Beats me. I generate fonts on the fly as I need = them.


[And a bit of renegade dialogue that really should've = been
adressed in a separate message]

-> Something nice would be the ability to set up = scaling ratios
-> based on x-height so that, say Times and = Helvetica can be mixed
-> with little thought.

-This would in principle possible with the new version = although I
-suppose a bit complicated. Therefore the question, = how important would
-this be? I mean for a particular job, (e.g. a book) = one can set up a
-short fontdef file with something like

-     <10>timr = at9.3pt....

-General scaling according to the x-height would slow = down loading but
-could be made faster if really desired.

On the one hand it is, as you indicated simple enough = to make the
adjustment on a per-job basis. On the other hand, = people seldom
do.

[and now back to the topic at hand]

From: Dominik Wujastyk = <ucgadkw%UCL.AC.UK@uga.cc.uga.edu>

-About magsteps, Frank says
-\begin{quotation}
- > First of all, who uses the current set of = font? That's something I
- > wonder for quite some time but would like to = her facts. I know that
- > some commercial installations (and also emtex, = for example, if one
- > makes fonts for it without much knowledge = about TeX internals, i.e.,
- > using mfjob all) will fill up the hard disk by = generating every font
- > even 5pt ones in every magstep known. The = result is a huge number of
- > fonts from that about 85% are never = used.
-\end{quotation}
-Yes, "mfjob all" will make all the fonts = at all the sizes, but
-surely the very point of mfjob is to make it easy to = make only
-the fonts you need.  That's why it is easy to = specify names and
-magsteps, etc.  Furthermore, dvi translators = such as dvips and
-the latest beta versions of the emtex drivers will = actually
-call metafont to create any fonts whose bitmaps are = not found
-when the DVI is examined.  I have been meaning = for some time now
-to start with a tabula rasa of bitmaps, and see what = fonts actually
-get generated, on a need-to-use basis.  Has = anyone else already
-done this?  Obviously the fonts used by = different people will vary,
-and only a statistical answer about frequency of use = is possible.

Well, here's what I've gotten from a blank slate = generation over
a month of use. This is a less-than-representative = state of the
union, but gives some idea at least of what sort of = distribution
occurs with typical LaTeX use:

 Directory of  = c:\lib\tex\fonts\pk\wblaser.300\dpi300\*.*
circle10.pk      = 4340   1-04-92  21:55
cmbx8.pk         = 4612   1-04-92  22:18
cmbx9.pk         = 5080   1-04-92  22:53
cmbx10.pk        = 5448  12-12-91  15:18
cmbx12.pk        = 6404   1-04-92  22:04
cmcsc10.pk       = 5660  12-08-91   0:53
cmex9.pk         = 6432   1-04-92  22:49
cmex10.pk        = 6948   1-04-92  22:57
cmmi5.pk         = 3684   1-04-92  23:01
cmmi6.pk         = 4312   1-04-92  23:01
cmmi7.pk         = 4828  12-17-91  23:29
cmmi8.pk         = 5340   1-04-92  22:57
cmmi9.pk         = 5844   1-04-92  22:57
cmmi10.pk        = 6532  12-17-91  23:31
cmr5.pk          = 3324  12-19-91  23:13
cmr6.pk          = 3680   1-04-92  22:19
cmr7.pk          = 4156  12-08-91   0:52
cmr8.pk          = 4524  12-08-91   0:54
cmr9.pk          = 4828  12-17-91  23:19
cmr10.pk         = 5384  12-12-91  15:18
cmr12.pk         = 6328   1-04-92  22:05
cmr17.pk         = 8980   1-04-92  22:19
cmsl9.pk         = 5532   1-04-92  22:41
cmsl10.pk        = 6176   1-04-92  22:42
cmss10.pk        = 4652   1-04-92  22:39
cmsy6.pk         = 4448   1-04-92  22:50
cmsy7.pk         = 4892  12-17-91  23:26
cmsy8.pk         = 5404  12-15-91  19:24
cmsy9.pk         = 5972   1-04-92  22:13
cmsy10.pk        = 6528  12-12-91  15:06
cmtex10.pk       = 4564   1-04-92  23:00
cmti8.pk         = 5308   1-04-92  22:20
cmti9.pk         = 5848   1-04-92  22:51
cmti10.pk        = 6528  12-17-91  23:23
cmtt8.pk         = 3704  12-15-91  19:26
cmtt9.pk         = 4008  12-15-91  19:26
cmtt10.pk        = 4436  12-15-91  19:24
cmtt12.pk        = 5204   1-04-92  22:40
cmu10.pk         = 5764   1-04-92  22:51
graylj.pk        = 1720  12-20-91   0:07
lasy10.pk         = 852   1-04-92  22:52
line10.pk        = 3768   1-04-92  21:56
logo8.pk          = 344  12-20-91   0:07
     212,320 bytes in 45 = file(s)           = 319,488 bytes allocated

 Directory of  = c:\lib\tex\fonts\pk\wblaser.300\dpi518\*.*
cmbx12.pk       = 11632   1-04-92  21:46
cmcsc10.pk       = 9832  12-12-91  11:08
      21,464 bytes in 4 = file(s)           =   24,576 bytes allocated

 Directory of  = c:\lib\tex\fonts\pk\wblaser.300\dpi186\*.*
kanjiaa.pk       = 3220  12-12-91  15:26
kanjiac.pk       = 5200  12-12-91  15:38
kanjiad.pk       = 4612  12-12-91  15:41
      13,032 bytes in 5 = file(s)           =   20,480 bytes allocated

 Directory of  = c:\lib\tex\fonts\pk\wblaser.300\dpi360\*.*
cmbx12.pk        = 7632   1-04-92  21:47
cmcsc10.pk       = 6736   1-04-92  22:03
cmr12.pk         = 7624   1-04-92  21:47
cmr17.pk        = 10968   1-04-92  21:48
cmsy10.pk        = 7792  12-15-91  19:24
cmtt12.pk        = 6068   1-04-92  22:38
      46,820 bytes in 8 = file(s)           =   53,248 bytes allocated

 Directory of  = c:\lib\tex\fonts\pk\wblaser.300\dpi1080\*.*
qtmr10.pk        = 6812  12-22-91   0:15
       6,812 bytes in 3 = file(s)           =    8,192 bytes allocated

 Directory of  = c:\lib\tex\fonts\pk\wblaser.300\dpi622\*.*
cmcsc10.pk      = 11920   1-04-92  22:05
cmr7.pk          = 7992  12-17-91  23:23
      19,912 bytes in 4 = file(s)           =   20,480 bytes allocated

 Directory of  = c:\lib\tex\fonts\pk\wblaser.300\dpi432\*.*
cmcsc10.pk       = 8084   1-04-92  21:44
cmtt10.pk        = 6128  12-17-91  23:21
      14,212 bytes in 4 = file(s)           =   16,384 bytes allocated


 Directory of  = c:\lib\tex\fonts\pk\wblaser.300\dpi150\*.*
cmcsc10.pk       = 3112   1-04-92  21:42
       3,112 bytes in 3 = file(s)           =    4,096 bytes allocated

 Directory of  = c:\lib\tex\fonts\pk\wblaser.300\dpi214\*.*
cmti7.pk         = 3468   1-04-92  22:03
       3,468 bytes in 3 = file(s)           =    4,096 bytes allocated

 Directory of  = c:\lib\tex\fonts\pk\wblaser.300\dpi240\*.*
cmcsc10.pk       = 4664   1-04-92  22:18
       4,664 bytes in 3 = file(s)           =    8,192 bytes allocated

 Directory of  = c:\lib\tex\fonts\pk\wblaser.300\dpi270\*.*
cmcsc10.pk       = 5096   1-04-92  22:37
       5,096 bytes in 3 = file(s)           =    8,192 bytes allocated

 Directory of  = c:\lib\tex\fonts\pk\wblaser.300\dpi420\*.*
qtmr10.pk        = 2264   1-05-92  19:13
       2,264 bytes in 3 = file(s)           =    4,096 bytes allocated

    Total for:  = c:\lib\tex\fonts\pk\wblaser.300\*.*
     353,176 bytes in 106 = file(s)          491,520 = bytes allocated
Do note that the vast majority of official QDT = documents are
typeset in Palation with occasional qtmr10 in the = logo and
occasional headlines. In response to someone else, = I'll include
the listing of fonts in the Beckman TeX = distribution.

-\begin{quotation}
- > So the questions:

- > 1) Which fonts are actually in standard = use?

- > 2) If we provide a typographical standard set = of fontsizes does this
- > increase the storage or reduce it if we at the = same time make a go to
- > reduce all the unnecessary magstep = versions?

- > 3) Having a second set font magnified to 1.2 = does make sense, when we
- > want to increase the resolution by optically = reducing the output from
- > TeX. It is not correct to use 12pt option! How = many magnifications are
- > necessary for this purpose? One or two? (Most = certainly not seven)
-\end{quotation}


-This all sounds very reasonable to me.  A proper = set of design sizes,
-together with perhaps one or two magsteps.


From: Sebastian Rahtz = <spqr%ECS.SOTON.AC.UK@uga.cc.uga.edu>

-Dominik Wujastyk writes:
- > magsteps, etc.  Furthermore, dvi = translators such as dvips and
- > the latest beta versions of the emtex drivers = will actually
- > call metafont to create any fonts whose = bitmaps are not found
- > when the DVI is examined.  I have been = meaning for some time now
- > to start with a tabula rasa of bitmaps, and = see what fonts actually
- > get generated, on a need-to-use basis.  = Has anyone else already
-I did this last week when I got a beta-test dvidrv = which could do the
-work, and its working well. I deleted about 15Mb of = fonts, and have so
-far only created about 1Mb, and that includes some = silly things I
-needed to test the NFSS2.

Like I've been saying, generate-as-you-go is the best = way to
fly. BTW, is it possible to intercept the calls to MF = and do
other things with them? Not all PK files are MF = output after all
(I have, among other things, PTI fontware and SFTOPK = on my
system).

-Mind you, all this stuff about CMR fonts is all dead = end. Surely the
-politically corrtect future is rasterizing being = done by the printer,
-as PS does (even if Ps is not perfect)? I dont think = LaTeX3Project
-should waste its precious resources sorting out = issues which are
-fundamental TeX problems.

Regardless of political correctness, the majority of = printers in
use do not support on-board rasterizing and the = majority of
drivers for those printers support little more than = PK-format
fonts (ignoring in hopes that they'll go away GF- and = PXL-reading
drivers). That plus the fact that cm is everywhere = means that we
had better deal with it even if it is dead = end.

- > I don't know that size is really an issue with = 40M drives
- > generally a minimum in the personal computing = world and the fact
- > that a well-chosen set of fonts can fit in = less than 2M of disk
- > space ("well-chosen" means every = font mentioned in
- > lfonts.new+every font chosen in plain.tex plus = every plain TeX
- > font _not_ preloaded at magsteps 0, 0.5 and = 1-5).
-but there is no standard set of fonts for = lfonts.new! there are
-various suggestions by Frank and Rainer, but I dont = think they claim
-these are `official', do they? I really cannot see = how you manage with
-this 2Mb, by the way.

It may not be official, but how many system managers, = let alone
_users_ muck with lfonts.anything? Remember, _we're_ = oddball
cases.

As regards the 2M question, a complete listing of = fonts in the
package follows (apologies for lack of arrangement, = I'm just
giving an LHARC listing):

From: bbeeton = <BNB%MATH.AMS.COM@uga.cc.uga.edu>

-a couple of questions, to incite comments.
-what effect might changing from a magstep to a = "true-size" approach
-have on the compatibility between sites using mainly = plain-based
-styles and those using mainly latex?

Slightly more than the requirement of lasy* circle and = line,
slightly less than the requirement of = PostScript.

-would practices diverge, resulting in even more = incompatibility and
-lack of mutual understanding than there is = now?

I'd hope not. In fact, one would expect that plain = users might
start using these fonts as well. At present, I still = frequently
come across abominations like cmr7 scaled\magstep5 in = plain TeX
files... it's a striking visual affect but so is = printing
everything in University Roman.

-do most of the people reading this discussion believe = that everything
-can be done with latex, to the exclusion of writing = job-specific
-macros even for certain specialized tasks?  if = so, then does the
-non-latex use of tex matter, i.e., does this group, = do other tex
-users care?

LaTeX is really only meant for structured documents. = About half
of my database publishing is done through LaTeX half = through
plain depending on what needs to be done. I would = never try
making my bottle label printing system part of LaTeX, = there's no
reason for it. On the other hand, the accompanying = MSDS
information sheets are best done with LaTeX. I've = even on
occasion been seen typing things in WordImperfect but = only in a
crunch.

-p.s. in the past, i have done a couple of things in = latex, by specific
-request to prove a point, for which leslie lamport = advised me *not* to
-use latex.  i can cite chapter and verse if = requested, but don't wish
-to pre-bias your thoughts.

I can believe it. I've on occasion mis-used LaTeX = myself (the
most recent case being a flyer which I did in LaTeX = picture mode
since that seemed the most direct case. It was far = from the
article its document style claimed it was).

-dh

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